Finance Committee on April 13th, 2021

[Barbara Boraks]

There is no evidence to support that statement. Actually, on the contrary, the research that has taken place both in Canada and internationally indicates that, generally speaking, there are two categories of people who remove themselves from work. The first is women who choose to stay home with young children. The second is people going back to upgrade their skills, either going back to school or getting different kinds of skills so that they can get better jobs.

I would emphasize that we have not come across any evidence to support the claim that people go on basic income just to stay home and do nothing.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

The other thing that tends to come up is that this would be very expensive, and that it would be too expensive for any national government to support. How would you respond to that?

[Barbara Boraks]

If you look at the PBO numbers, they come in at about $85 billion. The previous one said $80 billion. Again, that's looking at 75% of the poverty level.

There are many ways to finance that. You can look at the tax credits, as the PBO did. That comes out to net zero. Basically, it is a net cost of zero to implement the program. You can look at incorporating the current costs that the government spends on social support programs and income support programs, which is about $45 billion. You're bringing it down to $45 billion. You could also take off about another $20 billion, which is income supports that provinces utilize. That brings you down to about $20 billion. That is the same amount that the government is spending on the child benefit, and we know how that has raised children out of poverty. Raising taxes is not something that we think needs to be looked at.

The question it comes down to is whether this program is worth it.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Just to clarify, Ms. Boraks, I think the PBO report basically took the Ontario model and sort of applied it across Canada under a number of assumptions. Is that correct?

[Barbara Boraks]

That's correct.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There are a number of different definitions of a guaranteed basic income program. It could be a floor, as former senator Hugh Segal has suggested. It could be a “mincome”—a model that's based on something Manitoba did. There are any number of different ways to create a guaranteed basic income program across Canada. Is that right?

[Barbara Boraks]

That's correct.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Finally, some members of the disabled community are a bit nervous about the implementation of a guaranteed basic income. My personal principle is that no guaranteed basic income program should ever be put into place unless every participant is better off. How would you respond to those in the disabled community who might be a bit nervous about some sort of guaranteed basic income program going into effect?

[Barbara Boraks]

We strongly support the statement that anyone going into basic income should not be worse off. As a matter of fact, in the research done on the one-year Ontario basic program, which was at 75% of the poverty level, everyone stated that they were better off because of it. If and when, hopefully, the government goes into negotiations to start developing a basic income, these negotiations should be done together with groups that represent disabled individuals.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

The youth in Davenport, and in fact the many youth we heard from over the weekend at the LPC conference, very much support a guaranteed basic income. My understanding is that they feel that the world of work is changing quickly. Automation and AI are eliminating both blue-collar and white-collar jobs. There's much more of an unpredictable future around jobs. They're losing confidence that they'll ever be able to get ahead the way their parents did. They see something like a guaranteed basic income model as a way that will provide them with some stability as they try to make their way through the world.

Would you agree that this is a sentiment from our youth and that a guaranteed basic income program would provide that stability?

[Barbara Boraks]

Yes. We have a very large youth network across Canada, but that's a sentiment that applies not just to youth but to any sector of precarious work. Arts is another one, actually. There is very strong support for basic income from the arts community.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

My last question is for Festivals and Major Events Canada and Martin Roy.

At the beginning of March, Minister Guilbeault announced $181.5 million to support arts and live event workers in response to COVID-19. Has this funding in any way been helpful to the Festivals and Major Events Canada sector?

[Martin Roy]

At this point, it is still a bit too early to determine exactly how much festivals and events have benefited or will benefit. The $181.5 million does indeed seem like a lot of money, but it should benefit all the players in the cultural field, and God knows there are many. It's not just festivals and events.

In the previous announcement in early 2020, $500 million was given to the culture field. People were telling us we should be happy, but at the end of the day, of that $500 million, only $10 or $12 million went to festivals and events. If it's proportional, it certainly won't be enough.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, all.

We'll go to Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Mr. Johns and then Mr. Kelly.

Gabriel.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to inform you that in the second round, I may yield my seat to Ms. Elizabeth May, if she wishes to take it and if there is time. I see that Ms. May is nodding. That's fine.

I would like to welcome all the guests and thank them for their presentations. Again, this is very interesting.

I will address you first, Mr. Roy.

Tell us how major cultural events act as a lever in the economy, not only for the cultural sector, but also, as you mentioned, for the entire tourism and hospitality industry.

[Martin Roy]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

I think your question is very much related to the question that your colleague from British Columbia asked earlier. Serious studies that we've done, including with KPMG, prove that every dollar spent by festival-goers gets distributed. Some of it goes to festivals and events, particularly those that have a ticketing system, but it is not the primary expenditure of festival-goers. For every dollar spent, about a quarter goes to hotels and a third goes to food.

When you add this up, it's clear that it's not the festivals and events that benefit directly, but the surrounding communities and the entire ecosystem that surrounds the festivals and events. This is also why we think we can play a role as a lever. I like that expression you used. The idea is to capitalize on festivals and events. This will get “centred” tourists to go to the events and spend, especially on transportation, but also on lodging and dining.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

You were talking about the Quebec City Summer Festival and its impact on the businesses in this city, especially on Grande Allée. We are very much looking forward to the return of that festival.

On this topic, you mentioned the pact between your organizations and the government. Could you tell us again what that pact is about?

[Martin Roy]

We believe that we need to support those businesses that were hardest hit during the pandemic until they no longer need that support. We will again be forced, for a second year in a row, to not perform as we would like to and as we used to. So we need to have compensation.

As I was also saying, if the Canada emergency wage subsidy is going to end on June 5, 2021, it certainly won't be in the best interest of the tourism and cultural players, and certainly not in the best interest of the festivals and events, which won't be back to their normal revenue levels until next year.

As the government and the committee have said, support must be offered until we get across the river or weather this storm. This storm is not over. So we are calling for extended support, until the end of 2021, especially for those businesses that are hardest hit. I'm not talking about all businesses, but those that have lost 80% or 75% of their revenues. Those are the ones we need to think about.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you. We should also not forget the importance of predictability.

My next question is for Ms. Boraks.

Ms. Boraks, some time ago, on the subject of a guaranteed minimum income, which is universal income, Minister Hussen stated in the House of Commons that the government would rather provide financial assistance to those who need it rather than to everyone.

What would you say to him, in a minute and a few seconds?

[Barbara Boraks]

Basic income advocates in Canada support an income-targeted basic income, which goes to people who most need it. We do not support giving it to everybody.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That is a clear answer. Thank you.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Gabriel.

We'll turn to Mr. Johns for five minutes.

Go ahead, Gord.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for the really important work you're doing for Canadians, especially during these difficult times.

I'm going to start with Mr. Polito.

I really appreciate your talking about food security. In my riding, many of the organizations benefited greatly from the emergency food security fund that came out at the beginning of the pandemic, and also the second round that came during the second wave. Now we're in the third wave and they haven't gotten a top-up. They are literally shutting down the program. The Bread of Life in my riding, the local Salvation Army and Lush Valley all relied on this funding for their warming centres and for food distribution to the most marginalized—their client base—which has grown significantly because of the pandemic.

Could you talk about how important it is that we get a third round out to these community organizations?

[Chad Polito]

Food security is one of the major issues that has been brought on by the pandemic. Our organization recently received another grant from Second Harvest that was sponsored by Agri-Food Canada to help bridge the gap. We just received that news yesterday. Without these funds, we wouldn't be able to respond to all the needs that are coming through our doors.

There are more needs coming in than we're able to respond to, but we're doing our best to provide what we can to our community for these needs. Another wave of funding would be of great benefit to organizations across Canada that are doing this frontline work.