Evidence of meeting #38 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Blaine Cameron  Member, ACORN Canada
Mike Reimer  Owner and Operator, Churchill Wild
Tania Lee  Board Member and Land Border Duty Free Store Owner, Frontier Duty Free Association
Philippe Bachand  Board Member and Land Border Duty Free Store Owner, Frontier Duty Free Association
Benoit Chartier  Editor, Chair of the Board, Hebdos Québec
Sylvain Poisson  General Director, Hebdos Québec
Christopher Sheppard  President, National Association of Friendship Centres
Michael Wood  Partner, Ottawa Special Events
Jocelyn Formsma  Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to quickly check with the clerk. My screen is flickering. I don't know if you hear me well. I don't know if the screen is flickering for other members as well.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

It's flickering a little bit, Peter, but your sound is coming through well.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Okay, great.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses. You bring very important testimony. Hopefully, over the next hour, I'll have a chance to ask you more questions on what you've raised.

I'd like to start with Mr. Cameron and ACORN.

ACORN has endorsed my bill, Bill C-274, to end predatory lending in this country. I'll give you an example, Mr. Cameron, before I ask you to give us back some other examples.

A constituent who borrowed $700 about nine years ago has paid $11,000 in interest and still owes the original $700. These are low-income Canadians who, particularly during a pandemic, are having to go to payday lenders and are being charged absolutely appalling amounts because it's legal to do so. My bill would seek to end the loopholes that allow for interest rates of 500% or 600%.

Can you tell us other examples of low-income Canadians being subject to predatory lending and losing everything because of the extraordinary interest rates that are legally charged?

4:45 p.m.

Member, ACORN Canada

Blaine Cameron

Thank you very much for bringing that up.

The story of people getting trapped in these debt cycles is not uncommon. They can't get services through a regular bank and they're forced to turn to these predatory lenders. We used to have postal banking that served low-income communities. That was eliminated.

I know of a member here in Ottawa, from our Vanier chapter. He had gotten trapped in a debt cycle like that of getting another loan to pay off the one he took out before and still needed it to pay his rent. He was unable to find work or the work that he had wasn't enough to cover his expenses. He had family he could turn to, but he had his pride. It was quite a stressful event for him. When family and money get involved, it can really strain relationships. It really puts people in a bind.

Yes, we need to support that bill to end the ability of these lenders to be such predators.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you very much for that. I appreciate the support of ACORN and the work that you do right across the country.

Mr. Sheppard and Ms. Formsma, thank you very much for being here today. You raised an important issue about the budget simply forgetting urban indigenous peoples. We've seen, over the past year, $750 billion given to the banking industry in liquidity supports. The Parliamentary Budget Officer tells us that $25 billion in tax money every year goes to offshore tax havens, benefiting ultra-rich people and profitable corporations. The absence of a wealth tax means that $10 billion every year is lost to make investments for all people in this country. There's not even a pandemic profits tax, and the PBO estimates that $8 billion is the shortfall there. That again would make a huge difference.

How important is it for the government to ensure that resources are available to urban indigenous people here in Canada, and how important is it to have indigenous-led housing? You'll recall the NDP brought forward a motion on that to Parliament. The Liberal government voted against it. How important is it to have indigenous-led housing initiatives in urban centres across Canada?

4:45 p.m.

Jocelyn Formsma Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

I think we need to look at the numbers, right? Urban indigenous people, regardless of why they're in the urban settings, are the majority right now, and while we certainly would encourage and support first nations, Métis, Inuit governments and other organizations in being able to support their folks, the reality is that urban indigenous organizations like friendship centres have been doing it for decades. We're on our 50th year nationally, and some of our local friendship centres are on their 60th or almost 70th year. We've done a pretty good job of supporting and advocating for our community members, and those are first nations, Métis and Inuit, regardless of their residency or going back and forth.

We were extremely disappointed. We have a partnership with and support the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association, and their indigenous caucus has developed an excellent for-indigenous, by-indigenous urban indigenous housing strategy, and in the announcements that were made for infrastructure around housing and support for homelessness.... While some of our centres access the Reaching Home program and some of the other housing initiatives, there still is the gap for urban indigenous-owned and operated housing initiatives, and I'll just give this short example.

We have friendship centres that provide housing, and the tenants also have access to the wraparound support services that the housing provides, so it's not just a place to live. You get all of the benefits of the support services and the friendship centre.

We've had people who have lost their jobs. We've had people who have had difficulty feeding their families, and the friendship centre has been able not just to provide food and supply delivery to those tenants, but also has been very understanding and has been working with the tenants who are unable to pay their rent instead of evicting them. Even some of the subsidies that have been available.... Because of the additional support of the friendship centre, it's just a much more supportive way to get people into housing that's wraparound.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, we are—

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

How much—just a quick question—money would be required for that initiative?

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

Jocelyn Formsma

Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. We haven't costed out the plan, but I know the CHRA indigenous caucus has done a lot of work in that area, and a lot of times it's just making sure that the wording of these programs is open enough to ensure that the urban indigenous are included.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, we are going to have to move on.

We have Mr. Kelly, followed by Mr. McLeod, for five-minute rounds.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thank you, Wayne.

I'm going to put my first question or opportunity to comment here to Mr. Wood.

As a committee, we have heard some tremendously distressing stories from a variety of individual small businesses, including today at this meeting. Mr. Wood, you commented a bit about what it is to be a small business owner who has to sign personal guarantees on long-term leases. The bank requires personal guarantees any time you borrow money. There are no social supports, and all kinds of things that go along with employment income don't apply to the self-employed. Can you comment on what the small business community is going through now in experiencing these catastrophic collapses in revenue and how this really works with a family whose income is rooted in small business?

April 29th, 2021 / 4:50 p.m.

Partner, Ottawa Special Events

Michael Wood

Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Kelly, and thank you for the invitation today.

With regard to owning a small business, I think a lot of people think that we do it as something that we're passionate about, which is true, but we also do it to make a living. When I heard Mr. Reimer speak today before I did, I felt a little bit of relief from the sense that somebody is in, virtually, the same position I'm in, and neither one of us put ourselves in this position. We put ourselves in the position to employ people in our community, to give back to our community.

Ottawa gets cold. There was one year—for everybody in Ottawa, all the MPs—I was on the Queensway, and I got off at Bronson east. If you've done this before too, you know that there are people who are homeless there and are asking for something. From that, as a small business person, I created something called Keep Ottawa Warm. For three years prior to the pandemic, we brought in 2,500 pieces of winter clothing that we delivered to the shelters first-hand. We didn't go through any other third party. We went straight to the shelters with the clothes. This is why we have a small business.

When I signed up for a small business and started it from the ground up, my intention wasn't to be a millionaire. I am not a millionaire, and 98% of small business owners are not millionaires. We make a living. I have no problem—I have friends watching this right now—and I will tell you that I make $80,000 a year as a small business owner. I didn't start it to get rich. I started it to be able to provide for myself and my family.

Right now, through no fault of my own, I am personally at risk of losing everything. BDC has personal guarantees on loans. My bank has personal guarantees on loans. My lease with my landlord has a personal guarantee. Yes, I take risks as a small business owner, but I never anticipated that through no fault of my own, I would be in this position.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thanks.

I just want to bring in a couple of our other witnesses, perhaps either Frontier Duty Free Association or Mr. Reimer—or actually you, Mr. Wood. Maybe I'll get all three of you to quickly comment on what a difference it would or will make if we get to and achieve vaccination rates that will allow you to have your summer seasons. As the opposition, we've been talking since last October about how that the current government is not on pace to allow Canadians to get back and regain a summer season. Your summer seasons are at stake with current vaccination rates.

Do you have any comment on just getting your customers back, as opposed to just having more debt heaped on through support measures?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Could we start with Mr. Wood and then Ms. Lee, and then go over to Mr. Reimer?

4:55 p.m.

Partner, Ottawa Special Events

Michael Wood

Thank you. I'll be very brief.

It's more than getting vaccinations rolled out; it's getting back consumers' confidence that they can go to live events, can go to restaurants, can take in tourism. I think we need all levels of government to stop pointing fingers at each other, whether it's Ontario or the federal government. We have to get the vaccines rolled out and build consumer confidence so that we can all return to normal life as quickly as possible.

4:55 p.m.

Board Member and Land Border Duty Free Store Owner, Frontier Duty Free Association

Tania Lee

My comments are similar to Michael's. We are solely dependent on the border being open. We need vaccines. We need the border to open so that tourism can flow, because we are 100% dependent on a fully opened border. We make all of our money in the summer. It enables us to stay open in the winter months. If we miss a summer, that is going to be critical for our industry.

4:55 p.m.

Owner and Operator, Churchill Wild

Mike Reimer

Yes, it's likewise for us. We are pretty much at the tipping point. It's essentially too late for us. Most of our clientele book 12 to 24 months in advance. We likely won't see any of them this summer. Even if, by some miracle, borders were suddenly opened, we wouldn't see anybody this year.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all.

We'll go on to Mr. McLeod, who will be followed on a short round by Mr. Ste-Marie.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everybody for their presentations today, which were very interesting.

I want to start by responding to Mike Reimer from Churchill Wild.

In the Northwest Territories, we are opening up some of the tourism operations under some very strict guidelines. It's not going to cover everybody, but it's going to cover quite a few operators, so there's a lot of excitement about that.

We'd like to see the national parks consider doing the same. We're having some discussions on that front. In the Northwest Territories we are probably going to be at an 85% vaccination rate by the end of June. We have some flexibility. We're putting some very strict conditions on it. We're hoping we're going to save some of the operators, some of their businesses, and get things at least partially running.

My question, though, is to the National Association of Friendship Centres. It's around the comment that Chris made, I think, on distinctions-based funding impacts. I know that the new model of funding national organizations doesn't take in the urban indigenous, but it doesn't take in the northern indigenous either. It is an issue in the Northwest Territories. The reality is, however, that indigenous governments want to see funding flowing directly to them. In the Northwest Territories it doesn't matter which way the money flows, as long as it flows to us in the Northwest Territories. I want to ask how serious that impact is. Will it threaten the operations of the friendship centres on an ongoing basis?

I want to also point out that I am a founding member of the friendship centre in my community. I was so happy to see somebody come knocking on my door to see if I was all right. They wanted to know if I needed anything. They wanted to encourage me to get my vaccine, which I had already done.

Friendship centres do a lot of good work. I'm concerned that this issue of distinctions-based funding may impact the operations.

5 p.m.

Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

Jocelyn Formsma

Chris, do you want to go ahead?

5 p.m.

President, National Association of Friendship Centres

Christopher Sheppard

I'll take the first portion around how serious it is.

For me, the longer the conversation only happens around distinctions-based approaches, the less Inuit I feel. I don't know how to explain it in any more serious a way than that. I sometimes feel the erosion of my identity in many conversations, when budgets are presented or when programs are designed and we're not included in that conversation. We've done some work to look at....

UNDRIP doesn't say that this is how your self-determination happens as an indigenous person. It doesn't say that these are the structures through which this should happen. They're individualized rights. I should be thought of and looked to or asked for advice regardless of where I live. I think we, and I as an individual, sometimes look at resource distribution and think there is no way that 61% of resources for indigenous Canadians are going to urban people or urban organizations.

We are very practical in our thought process. Indigenous people, regardless of where they live, are not a brand new mentality or reality. Urban migration is the reason we exist and why we're 60, 70 years old as an organization, and our relationship with Canada is extremely long.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

While we're talking about a shift on how money has flowed, I want to point to one of the pillars of the friendship centres. Friendship centres run independent of political organizations. That was the beauty. It's what attracted me as an individual to work with the friendship centres, to try to set up an operation in a community that focused on people rather than on whether they're Inuit or Indian or Métis.

If the money is run through one of the national organizations, then you fall under their guidelines or under that umbrella, and it moves away from the intention of friendship centres to run independently, outside political organizations, political bodies. How would that affect the friendship centres?

I could see it in some of the communities, where the chief or the Métis president would then be in charge of the friendship centres and steer money. It would go towards their membership, not necessarily towards the people who need it or the people who come into the community who don't belong to a band or a Métis council or an Inuit organization.

5 p.m.

Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

Jocelyn Formsma

I might just jump in really quickly.

We have some friendship centres that are serving people from about 50 or more first nations, and Inuit and Métis who are outside their homeland, as well as Inuit who either are not beneficiaries of an Inuit land claim agreement or are just living in the south. It's important that we cannot run sustainable, reliable and effective community-driven urban organizations just agreement by agreement, hoping to get something from a first nations, Métis or Inuit government or from multiple first nations, Métis or Inuit governments.

It's really important to recognize that there is a community within the urban setting. In some cities, such as Winnipeg, Toronto, Edmonton and Vancouver, we're three or four generations in. These aren't people who are just coming from the reserve anymore; these aren't just people visiting. These are very well-ingrained communities.

It's really important to ensure that if something is available to an indigenous person somewhere, it should be available to an indigenous person anywhere. Our rights are portable. They are rooted in who we are as people. That's what we're trying to go to. For some organizations, it just makes sense for indigenous peoples across distinctions to come together to provide supports for that community.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We are going to have to move on.

I'll just give you where we're at. We have ample time.

We'll go to two and a half minutes with Mr. Ste-Marie and two and a half for Mr. Julian. Then we'll go to Ms. Wagantall, who I believe wants in. It will be a five-minute round each for Ms. Wagantall and Mr. Fragiskatos. Then we'll have room for two more questions after that, if somebody wants to give me a signal when we get there.

Mr. Ste-Marie, you have two and a half minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Bachand.

Among the stimulus measures you are asking for is the reinstatement of the GST visitor rebate program and the federal duty-free export designation.

Can you explain this in more detail, please?