Evidence of meeting #46 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was young.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Mr. Speaker, I'm hoping you'll be generous with me, as you have been with so many other members of the committee.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Yes, I know, but come on, don't cheat me out of this one.
Mr. Moody, in 2018 CPA Canada put out a report that stated the following:
Canada needs to ensure we continue to create jobs, attract investment and remain competitive. But, on these vital measures, our current tax system is falling short, and Canadians and their businesses risk falling ever more behind their global peers.
Especially after the pandemic, more than ever we need to be an attractive place for investors and job creators. Do you see any serious attempts in this budget to tackle the challenge of creating a competitive taxation environment that would attract business to Canada?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP
No. The only exception to that would be the compliment I gave in my opening remarks, which was a bit of a surprise, for the immediate expensing of certain capital assets. That was unexpected and welcome, but outside of that, no.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
The C.D. Howe Institute has stated, “High personal taxes disadvantage Canada in the competition for global talent.” Watching the recent exodus happening in the U.S. from the highest-tax states, like California, to lower-taxation states, we should recognize that we face the very same risk as a nation. Tesla, Hewlett-Packard, Charles Schwab, SignEasy, QuestionPro and others have all moved out of the state. Canada isn't immune to the impact of high tax rates, both personal and corporate.
How does this budget tackle the problem of Canadian business leaving the country for more supportive countries?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP
Frankly, it doesn't. That's the blunt answer.
If anybody doesn't believe me, why don't you hang out in my office in my hometown of Calgary and see the hollowing out of the oil and gas sector? Although the media reports 30%, the real effective downtown vacancy rate is close to 50%. It's horrible to see all the oil and gas companies and other companies moving down south or elsewhere with their jobs. It's horrifying.
I also challenge anybody to hang out in my office. Obviously, solicitor-client privilege and confidentiality restrictions apply, but I'll show you all the files I'm working on, on a no-names basis, with high-net-worth job creators moving. It's a flurry. I can't wait until Statistics Canada catches up with it. I'm not seeing any media or Statistics Canada reporting on it, but it's a massive problem. It goes to a whole variety of issues.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
It's absolutely devastating, for sure.
Stimulating business activity, job creation and growth should be the key objectives underpinning the design of our tax system. SMEs were responsible for creating 95.4% of private sector jobs in Canada between 2005 and 2015. As of 2015, SMEs employed 10.5 million, or 90.3%, of private sector workers across Canada, yet the taxation of SMEs has been subjected to layer upon layer of complex changes over the years. They're having trouble keeping up. As well, costs for compliance are increasing.
Why does the taxing of small business continue to be so punitive when they are the source of new jobs in Canada?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP
I wish I had an answer. The 2017 private corporation debacle was a prime example of thinking that SMEs are some kind of evil rich people who can withstand complex legislation. The tax on split income regime is the perfect example.
If any of you members can make sense of the tax on split income regime, I want to hire you. I'll pay you very well. That sounds arrogant and condescending, but it's the truth. It's one of the most difficult pieces of legislation I've ever seen hoisted on a group of people who can least afford to pay for it. What do they need to resort to? They need to resort to expensive tax specialists like me.
That's foundationally unfair. That's one of the reasons that people like me, and there's a whole host of people like me, have been calling for comprehensive tax review and reform and simplification for years and years and years. I hope that happens.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We have to end it there.
Mr. Fragiskatos, you have four minutes at the most.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. Wilson, thank you for being here today. Of course, I extend that to all the witnesses.
Ms. Wilson, what would the impact have been on Canadian women entrepreneurs if the various emergency supports had not been introduced by the federal government when COVID-19 first began and obviously continued?
I ask that because, as you have pointed out here and elsewhere, the pandemic has had a negative and disproportionate impact on women entrepreneurs and women in general.
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
Yes.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I know I'm asking you to answer a hypothetical, but if those emergency supports had not been introduced, what would have happened to women business owners in the pandemic? I suppose that's the question.
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
To the extent that a woman business owner was or is eligible for that financial support, that hypothetical woman business owner benefited from that program or intervention. In this hypothetical scenario, without that financial support, that woman business owner would certainly be worse off.
The problem with those financial supports is that the way they were designed excluded many women and racialized business owners. I certainly can't guesstimate what the net effect would have been without those financial supports. Certainly some women business owners benefited from having those supports, and to that extent, they would be worse off without those supports.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
No, of course not.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I don't mean to cut you off. I have limited time. It's not entirely hypothetical, because there were many thousands of businesses that benefited, including many businesses I know from my own community run by women and owned by women that did see support.
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
Yes, no doubt.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I think it's good to think in terms of counterfactuals here. If we hadn't had these emergency supports introduced, we would have had entrepreneurs, including women entrepreneurs, left on their own to fend for themselves.
I take your point. I won't go into the substance of what you articulated earlier. We have limited time, again, but I do think that we need to acknowledge that these programs have helped people, including women business owners, in a very real way. They have provided a lifeline. I've seen in my own community where women business owners have utilized the wage subsidy. Their workers have utilized the CERB and later the CRB. Would you acknowledge that?
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
CERB, absolutely. CERB and CRB, 100%. CERB was very much designed for individuals and self-employed individuals. CERB and CRB were a real lifeline. If you want me to acknowledge that those financial programs helped businesses, including some women-owned businesses, it's acknowledged, absolutely acknowledged. It's on the record.
I am not arguing against those programs. I'm not saying that they shouldn't exist. I'm arguing about including, adding or extending programs and designing programs that will help the most number of business owners.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we are going to have to end it there. We are a few minutes over.
5:30 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Chamber of Commerce
That's fine.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I want to thank all the witnesses on this panel and previous panels today. We had a fairly extensive day with four panels.
Thank you to all the witnesses for your presentations, and for answering our questions on Bill C-30.
I am hearing quite a number of complaints from members about Zoom on their eyes, because we are on Zoom a long time, so if anybody has any magic solutions, whether it's eye drops or something else, let the rest of us know. I see Annie has the eye drops up there, but I know my own eyes are starting to get bothered by the amount of time we're on Zoom.
We'll look for magic solutions coming forward at the next meeting maybe.
With that, thank you to everyone. The meeting is adjourned.