Evidence of meeting #56 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

André Lareau  Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual
Claude Vaillancourt  President, Quebec Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions and Citizen's Action
Charles-Antoine St-Jean  President and Chief Executive Officer, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada
Bruce Ball  Vice-President, Taxation, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 56 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, the committee is meeting to study the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25; therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

That said, I'll forgo the formalities.

We have a quick motion that we need to deal with on the project budget cost for this set of hearings. I think Mr. Ste-Marie has distributed a motion to members. To give members a heads-up, we'll deal with that during the last 15 minutes of the committee.

The budget, I believe, for this set of hearings on the study of the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion has been sent to members. It is requesting an amount of $1,800 for this study. The costs are broken down in what has been sent to members.

Does somebody want to move adoption of that?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I'd be happy to.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

It has been moved by Mr. Kelly.

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you.

We will start—

June 15th, 2021 / 4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'll just take a brief moment.

I know that during the sound check some very kind words were spoken on the announcement you made yesterday. On the record, I would like to first of all recognize the fantastic job you've done as our chair. For the last six years I've been on and off this committee. It's been a delight to participate in this committee with you, Wayne.

Wayne, you're a great parliamentarian. You'll be sorely missed for your service to community, to country, and to your party, and for your great judgment. You've never let your party loyalty get in the way of fairness to other parties or get in the way of friendship or your good humour. I wish all the best to you in your retirement.

I'm really looking forward to your speech tonight. When we're done here at committee, I'll be zipping off to the chamber. I'm very keen to hear what you might have to say tonight.

Thanks, Wayne. I really appreciate your service.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Pat. I probably should probably be working on that speech now.

Anyway, thank you for that. You guys are embarrassing me.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

I have a point of order.

I'm going to break all parliamentary rules, Wayne, and just say that I was talking about you while I was doing my sound check. You have played such a key role in the finance committee. Your stewardship has been amazing, because you don't take things personally even when things get heated. You're not partisan. You try to get things done, which is really the embodiment of a fine parliamentarian.

I think one of the best moments with you and the finance committee was being down in Prince Edward Island at the pre-budget consultations and seeing you in your own element. You will be sorely missed. There are very few parliamentarians—I think everyone agrees—whose absence will be noted, but you are one of them.

I just wanted to praise you for your work and wish you all the best.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Peter. Thank you all. It's been a blast. It's a lot of fun.

Now let's get to work.

We will start with our first witness, André Lareau, associate professor, faculty of law at Université Laval .

Go ahead, André. The floor is yours.

4:05 p.m.

Prof. André Lareau Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Good afternoon.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee today.

Several years ago, I met the journalist Laurent Laplante. He told me that you can't control what you can't see. That sums up the topic of my presentation today, which will primarily focus on KPMG's planning in the Isle of Man.

I'll make an analogy with chefs. When you want to make a recipe, you use various ingredients, which are all good. However, when put together, these ingredients can yield a surprising and sometimes disappointing result. That's exactly what happened with KPMG's tax planning.

The ingredients were the incorporation of a company in a tax haven. People donate money to a company. The company then invests the money and gives the returns back to the investors in the form of donations. The individual ingredients aren't a problem. The incorporation of a company isn't an issue, and neither are the donations. However, when you put all this together, it creates an unbelievable trick that looks like fireworks. It doesn't work.

Brian Arnold, a professor at Western University in London, Ontario, once said that KPMG's strategy was like a tax‑free savings account, or TFSA. It was a TFSA without a cap and designed exclusively for wealthy people. Professor Arnold also asked another person, with whom he was taking a walk, what they had to say about KPMG's planning.

The person had this to say about the planning:

“So let me get this straight. You give several million dollars to strangers on some island somewhere, but whenever you want some of that money, you can get it and you don't pay any Canadian tax. It seems too good to be true.”

In my experience, most things that seem too good to be true turn out to be untrue.

KPMG said that it set up the scheme 16 times. The firm charged a fee of at least $100,000 for each strategy, and even more, because amounts were also payable annually on the returns. Did KPMG use this strategy anywhere other than the Isle of Man? We don't know. KPMG refuses to answer this question.

In their testimony, Greg Wiebe and Lucy Iacovelli said that the firm realized back in 2003 that it had to stop using this strategy. We're now told that this strategy was used up until 2014. This strategy wasn't used up until 2010, as we thought, but up until 2014 and maybe even 2015. We even know that KPMG received fees for the strategy at least until 2008, according to a letter sent by Mark Meredith from KPMG to Cecilia Jenkins from the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA, on January 6, 2012.

The Cooper family is the only family that challenged the notice of assessment. The Cooper family members not only went to court to challenge the notice, but they later took the bold step of making a voluntary disclosure, because they continued to use the strategy until 2015. On December 31, 2015, through their counsel, they submitted a voluntary disclosure application. The Canada Revenue Agency told them that their application was inadmissible because they were under investigation. Their counsel even submitted a request to have the Federal Court review the Canada Revenue Agency's decision. The entire Cooper family case was subsequently settled.

We've recently heard a great deal of talk about the #MeToo movement. This movement is making people aware that criminal acts aren't subject to the statute of limitations. A criminal act doesn't stop being criminal over time. The crime committed isn't any less serious after time has passed. Economic crimes must also be prosecuted, even after all these years.

In the case of KPMG, the court must be involved. The extent of any tax evasion must be verified. I don't need to share my conclusion, which you know. However, the court must look into this matter.

A theory was created in 2012 in the Meeds v. Meeds case before the Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta. The theory is called organized pseudolegal commercial arguments, or OPCA. This theory suggests that people use arguments detached from a given reality to convince individuals that they're right.

Maybe you know the Fiscal Arbitrators. These people decided to file tax returns for clients. They would then charge them a fee. However, they created fictitious losses for them. The creator of Fiscal Arbitrators is in prison today and is serving a six‑year sentence.

Is there really a difference between the creator of Fiscal Arbitrators, who promised losses that didn't exist, and KPMG's strategy, which promised donations that didn't exist? Those donations didn't really exist.

The Meeds decision states as follows:

A court or legal professional can explicitly and clearly respond to this category of pseudolaw. However, some OPCA pseudolaw, “Otherlaw,” is entirely disconnected from “mainstream” law, and represents a “something else” category of thought, belief, and behaviour.

That's exactly what happened here.

In conclusion, I would say that a public inquiry must be held in the KPMG case. Subsection 231.4(1) of the Income Tax Act states that a public inquiry may be necessary to shed light on this situation.

If, in their wisdom, the courts conclude that there wasn't any tax evasion, so be it. However, people are currently outraged by this planning.

Thank you for your attention.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Lareau.

Mr. Vaillancourt, the floor is yours.

4:15 p.m.

Claude Vaillancourt President, Quebec Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions and Citizen's Action

Good afternoon.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee today.

The Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions and Citizens' Action, or ATTAC, is an organization represented in several countries and on four continents. ATTAC‑Québec, like the other ATTACs, focuses on tax issues in particular. In our opinion, tax fairness plays a key role in achieving greater social justice, ensuring a better distribution of wealth and developing quality public services.

Since this involves an assessment of the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to fight tax evasion and tax avoidance, we're speaking to you, members of Parliament, today. We'll be talking about your own efforts, since the agency reports to you.

First, we want to say that we're concerned about the state of Canada's public finances. The cost of dealing with the effects of COVID‑19 has been very high and will add significantly to the budget deficit. Further spending increases should be expected. The green transition, which is absolutely necessary for our economic health and for our survival as a species on this planet, will require major public investments. These investments will include major technological transformations based on energy conservation, the electrification of transportation, the transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy, and so on.

Given this situation, fiscal restraint, which has stifled us in recent years and greatly weakened our ability to respond to the pandemic, is no longer an option. This shows how much the CRA will play a fundamental role in the coming years and how much the fight against tax evasion and tax avoidance should be the focus of our collective concerns.

We're concerned about the CRA's funding, which we believe is still too low. According to the Échec aux paradis fiscaux collective, the Government of Canada has replenished the agency to the tune of $500 million since 2015. The latest federal budget added $534 million. This barely makes up for the $1 billion in cuts made by the Harper government, even though the current needs are much greater.

The recently implemented automatic exchange of information is finally providing access to a tremendous amount of data. This will make the work of investigators easier, but will mainly require a significant amount of analysis and data processing by leading experts. A substantial investment will be needed. ATTAC‑Québec is proposing that the CRA's budget be significantly increased, on top of the amounts already allocated, and that the money be spent on investigations targeting the major fraudsters, whether they're companies or individuals.

With respect to tax avoidance, we believe strongly in the effectiveness of a registry of beneficial owners, subject to the following conditions: access to the registry should be free and easy for the public at large; the information published should provide a complete picture of the identity of beneficial owners; adequate resources should be allocated to verifying the information provided; and the liability threshold should be 10% of the share of the company in question, thereby reflecting the distinction between a foreign direct investment and a portfolio investment proposed by Statistics Canada. There has never been a scientific consensus regarding the effectiveness of an overly high threshold, such as the 25% threshold in the United Kingdom.

We ultimately appreciate the G7 proposal for a global minimum tax on companies. This is a good way to fight tax avoidance and the particularly harmful strategy of transfer pricing. However, the 15% minimum tax rate seems too low and could contribute to increasing tax competition between states with good taxation systems. Moreover, this rate, which is meant for multinational companies only, makes us worry about preferential treatment for them, at the expense of SMEs and individuals. At this time, significant efforts should be made to ensure that taxation is truly progressive.

Your decisions on the CRA will play a key role in the coming years to ensure greater social justice and better environmental protection. Although progress has been made, it's far from sufficient. Every effort must be made to eliminate tax havens. We hope that you'll take the necessary steps to ensure that Canada becomes a world leader on these issues, rather than continuing to take the passive and wait‑and‑see approach that unfortunately has been in place for a long time.

This concludes my remarks.

Thank you for your attention.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Vaillancourt.

We will turn to the Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada, starting with Mr. St-Jean, president and CEO. Bruce Ball, vice-president for taxation, is here as well.

The floor is yours.

4:20 p.m.

Charles-Antoine St-Jean President and Chief Executive Officer, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

It's truly a pleasure to address this committee today and to be here in a different role than in the past. As the former Comptroller General of Canada, I have worked with many of you and with many parliamentarians and senior government officials, and I'm very pleased to deliver these remarks today to the committee as the president and CEO of CPA Canada. With me today is my colleague Bruce Ball, who is the vice-president, taxation, of CPA Canada.

Before I start, would you just allow me to congratulate you, Mr. Chair, on your 28 years of service to Canada and to your own province? CPA Canada has always appreciated working with you, and we wish you the very best for the future.

CPA Canada is the national organization that represents Canada's CPA profession nationally and internationally. It supports the CPA provincial and territorial accounting organizations across Canada, which have statutory authority to regulate the profession's 220,000 members. Among its many activities, CPA Canada's mission is to act in the public interest and to contribute to economic and social development.

CPA Canada has always maintained a good working relationship with the government, including Finance Canada and the CRA. Throughout the pandemic, our collaboration with the federal government has reached new levels. We have been educating members and providing them with the tools they need to support individuals and small businesses in navigating key government support programs. We've also been providing advice and expertise on where improvements are most needed, and we've been working to find solutions so that those who are eligible for the benefits are able to receive them.

Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada, or CPA Canada, believes that the tax system in the country is an important policy mechanism to support Canada's economic recovery and efforts to build back better. Our organization has long called for the government to conduct a comprehensive review of Canada's complex tax system, which taxpayers need to better understand in order to comply with their obligations. This is important. Our overall standard of living can be maintained only when everyone pays their fair share of taxes.

As part of its commitment to serve the public interest, CPA Canada has consistently taken a stand against tax evasion and other financial crimes that are inherently illegal, unethical and harmful to the economy and societies worldwide.

Those are not victimless crimes. Real people are harmed. It is heart-wrenching to hear the stories of those on whom these crimes have taken a terrible toll: on their health, their well-being, their families and their life savings. Our position on financial crime is clear, and it is on the public record.

CPA Canada works with the Canadian government and international organizations to improve tax regimes, combat money laundering and strengthen financial systems to counter criminal activities. For example, CPA Canada has provided input in the OECD and the B20 and participated in the private sector consultative forum on the financial action task force. We've also appeared many times before this committee and the Senate national finance committee calling for a comprehensive tax review, and both committees have endorsed our recommendations. CPA Canada has also served on the Minister of National Revenue's underground economy advisory committee.

We work also to strengthen Canada's anti-money-laundering regime through multiple government submissions, our representation on Finance Canada's advisory committee on money laundering and terrorist financing and, most recently, our participation in the Cullen commission public inquiry in B.C.

CPA Canada has also actively participated in government consultations to strengthen corporate beneficial ownership transparency since the discussions began in 2018. We're pleased to see the government's commitment in the recent budget to implementing a public registry of beneficial ownership. We believe that transparency is a critical factor in the fight against financial crime. We applaud our government.

We also welcome the federal government's commitment to increasing tax compliance, strengthening the integrity of the tax system and ensuring tax fairness.

The measures set out in the 2021 budget to fund new initiatives and extend existing programs will help to crack down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance and enhance the CRA's ability to collect outstanding taxes in a timely manner.

These are important steps forward, yet more action is needed from all of us. We all share this responsibility. In the fight against tax evasion, we must realize that Canada’s tax system is overly complex. We need to continue to simplify Canada’s tax system, and we encourage this committee to continue with those conversations and your recommendations. In a nutshell, simplification makes compliance much easier.

As always, CPA Canada is ready to work with parliamentarians to advance this effort.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Monsieur Ball and I welcome your questions.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. St-Jean.

As you know, we recommended a comprehensive tax review at this committee a couple of times ourselves.

We'll start questions with Mr. Falk, Mr. Fragiskatos, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian. Mr. Falk, you have six minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Chair, give me six minutes and 15 seconds to start with to allow me a brief moment to thank you for your many years of service to not only your constituents but your province and country.

I remember when I was first elected to the House seven and a half years ago, and we were together on the public accounts committee. You sat on the opposition side all by your lonesome as a Liberal. I remember what a statesman you were as an opposition member, and now I've gotten to enjoy you as a committee chair. I've found you to be just as much a statesman, if not even more so. You've been courteous, respectful, tolerant, and certainly you've been non-partisan in the adjudication of your position, so I thank you, Wayne. I thank you for your friendship. You've not let your job interfere with your friendships, and I thank you for that.

Now I want my six minutes to start.

Thank you to all of our witnesses here for testifying at committee. I've appreciated the input that you've given into this very important topic that we're discussing about combatting tax avoidance and evasion.

Mr. Lareau, I was particularly interested in your analysis of the KPMG situation and the tax havens that The Fifth Estate has tried to document for Canadians. Some folks have found themselves out of their life savings, and hardships have been created by the tax scheme that was entered into by many unscrupulous people with the help of KPMG, it appears.

I'm going to move past that, though. Mr. Lareau, I want to ask you a question about the more current environment that we have. The Prime Minister, in his 2019 mandate letter to the Minister of National Revenue, instructed the minister to “seek new ways to counter tax avoidance and evasion by wealthy individuals”, “enhance our existing tax avoidance and evasion whistleblower programs”, and “look for more opportunities to invest resources that help crack down on tax evaders”.

Mr. Lareau, in your opinion, has the government taken meaningful action in accomplishing that objective?

4:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Prof. André Lareau

What has been done is in the right direction. Yes it is, but it is not enough. You may want to crack down on tax evasion; however, if you don't have the means to find the people who practise tax evasion, you'll never find them. This is the main problem, because our court system is way too lenient towards tax evasion, and in fact it is not only the court system but the CRA and Justice Canada as well.

Arthur Cockfield recently mentioned in a publication that in the U.S., KPMG had an almost $550-million fine in 2005. You would never see that in Canada. Why? It is because, unfortunately, we don't work that way.

The measures that were taken were good measures, but we now have to focus on the people who hide money. If you don't do anything against KPMG, the consequence is that the large firms will think, “Let's do it again; there are no consequences to what we're doing.”

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay.

You alluded a little bit to the United States and the amount of the fine that was issued there against KPMG. How do we compare with other jurisdictions in going after people that are looking to evade taxes?

4:30 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Prof. André Lareau

I have been retired from the university for the last four years. I haven't studied what's recently been done in other countries, so I can't give you the correct response.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Maybe I'll go on to another question.

We have tax treaties with other jurisdictions. Can you talk a little bit about how they may facilitate tax evasion and tax avoidance?

4:30 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Prof. André Lareau

Well, they facilitate communication and discussion with other countries, but if you don't have a tax treaty with most of the tax havens, then you don't have the communication. You don't have the information. That's a problem. With the other 95 or so countries that we have tax treaties with, it's easier. Unfortunately, you don't have those treaties with tax haven countries.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Good. Thank you.

I'm going to shift my questions over to the Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada.

Mr. St-Jean, as part of your presentation to this committee, you have talked several times about a complete tax system overhaul. Can you comment on how you would envision a tax overhaul helping to address the issue of tax evasion and tax avoidance?

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada

Charles-Antoine St-Jean

I will start the answer to your question and then I will ask my colleague Mr. Ball to complete it.

When you look at the overall tax code in Canada, you see that it's over 3,000 pages. It's very difficult for people to comprehend the various complexities in the tax code. A better definition of “taxable income” and of various streams of income would be quite helpful.

Maybe I could ask my colleague to provide some perspective on how to go about it specifically. Bruce, could you complement that question?

4:30 p.m.

Bruce Ball Vice-President, Taxation, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada

Sure. Thank you.

We were looking for an independent process, also with the input of the government, to basically have a look at all the tax rules and consider whether they made sense. We could do a review of all our tax expenditures, for example, to make sure that where we do have tax expenditures, they are actually working. We could identify areas that are complicated in the tax rules. There has been a lot of discussion about smaller companies and small businesses having trouble complying because of complexities; let's see if we can simplify that sort of thing. There have been issues in terms of individuals getting access to benefits. Again, we could review the system of tax credits and the tax benefits for lower-income individuals to make sure they are able to access those as well.

Generally, do a complete review. It has been 50 years. I think it's long overdue.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay. Thank you—

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Sorry, Ted. We are a minute over, even with giving you that first comment back to zero.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You have been generous, as usual.