Finance Committee on June 15th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

We will turn last to Mr. McLeod. I'm sorry, Michael, but you're only going to have four minutes, because we have to get to this motion.

The floor is yours.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters today. It's very interesting to listen to the wealth of experience and the knowledge you have on taxes and tax evasion.

In the economic statement in the fall of 2020, our government committed to invest $606 million over five years, starting in 2021, to expose the high-net-worth compliance gap, to strengthen technical support for high-risk audits and to enhance the criminal investigations program.

We heard today that the funding commitment by our government is still too low. I listened with real interest as I heard that the previous government, the Harper government, had made cuts to CRA's resources. I'm wondering if you could tell us—and I think Claude and André talked about the cuts—what the impact was of those cuts. If we're putting money into it and there is still not enough, what was the impact when resources were taken away? Are we still trying to play catch-up as a result? Do we not have all the technology we need because of that? Is it that we don't have enough staff, or maybe that the resources we have are inadequate to do the job?

Does somebody want to take a crack at giving me some answers to those questions?

[Charles-Antoine St-Jean]

Maybe I could give a comment or two.

The evolution of technology in the last number of years has been extraordinary. The ability to do things is very different from what it was five years ago.

When we were talking about new tools that are needed to combat tax evasion effectively, I think I alluded to AI a bit earlier on. These are some of the tools we need to equip all of our departments with, and we also need to get the talent to be able to deploy it and use it. There is not an overabundance of this talent in Canada, as you have heard us say many times. There is a talent war. The ability to attract talent is a challenge not only for government but also for the private sector.

Getting all the people who are needed who have the talent that is needed is a problem that's not going to go away easily, but government still needs to keep trying to source the talent, the people and the technology to help this situation, because the other side is also investing and trying to find ways to beat the system. Combatting it is a never-ending battle.

Maybe I could turn to my colleague Bruce to see if he would like to complement this answer.

[Bruce Ball]

Thank you.

Going to the original question, I don't think we can talk to the impact of previous decisions around funding of the CRA, but based on the discussions we have with them, they are trying new things, especially in dealing with issues around non-compliance, both in terms of penalty and in terms of getting people to come forward. I think there have been improvements over the years.

The other thing is that it's not going to be “one and done”. It's a process, so the CRA will have to continue to look at what they're doing and see if it's working or if they have to do new things. I don't think you can say that we've found the answer and now we'll carry on; it's going to be an ongoing process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Mr. Vaillancourt, and then we'll have to go to the next person.

[Claude Vaillancourt]

I talked about this issue earlier.

I was saying that the Harper government's cuts were made in the context of an austerity policy. They have caused a lot of damage to the country. Now, with the money reinvested in the Canada Revenue Agency, we're at about the same point as before, while the needs are much greater and the situation has become very complex.

Technology has indeed changed, and we have access to much more information than we did before. It's very difficult to process that information, and it's extremely complex, whether it's tax leakage or automatic information exchange.

So that's why we're saying not only do we need to go beyond the current level and compensate for the losses, which we're doing, but we also need to go a lot further and invest a lot more money.

In my opinion, the Biden administration has realized that in the current emergency situation caused by, among other things, all the additional expenses generated by the COVID‑19 pandemic, it is time to recover that money. These funds can only be accessed by increasing the number of experts and specialists who can investigate and catch the fraudsters, who are the hardest to catch.

That's why we consider our request to be important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I think we have received a lot of information this afternoon. We'll have to go to the minutes to really delve into it.

On behalf of the committee, thank you to all our witnesses for appearing and for providing the information based on your life experience. Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Ste-Marie, we'll turn to you. I know members have received your motion, so we'll give the floor to you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses.

Before I propose my motion, I would like to provide some context.

Next Thursday, we will continue the committee's study on the same subject. The purpose of the meeting is to identify the key witnesses in this case. As I understand it, so far, the six witnesses who were named in the CBC article have not accepted the invitation. One of these witnesses, who is not a Canadian citizen, has reportedly declined any offer, and the others who are the subject of the motion that will be discussed have not refused to appear. I understand that some deadlines can be tight and that, ideally, the committee could adopt a motion to invite these witnesses. However, since the committee meeting is on Thursday and after that we'll have only one meeting left with the ministers, I would move a motion to summon these witnesses.

I really want to clarify that these motions aren't about witnesses who have refused to appear before the committee. Given the tight timelines and the fact that we haven't received any responses so far, I would like to ensure that we hear from key witnesses in this important study. That is why I have forwarded a motion to you.

Here's the wording of the motion I'm proposing:

That Michael Morris, Susan Gibbons, William Maycock and Serge Bilodeau be summoned to appear before the Committee as part of the study on the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion, during the meeting of Thursday, June 17, 2021, and that the Committee order Ian Morris to forward Michael Morris's contact information to the clerk of the Committee so that he can summon him to appear.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The motion is up for discussion. Does anyone want to speak to it?

Mr. Julian, go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I support the motion for the reasons that Mr. Ste‑Marie just outlined. As a committee, it's important that we reiterate the importance of these invitations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Is there anyone else, or are we going to a vote?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

A vote is fine, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Clerk, can you poll the committee members on the motion?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, this may be unanimous. I didn't hear anybody object, and for what it's worth, I'll be voting in favour of the motion. I expect my colleagues will as well. Unless there's an objection, I would suggest the motion just carry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't see any objections.

(Motion agreed to)

The motion is in fact carried.

The clerk has already given me a little note on what the summons would look like. We may have a bit of trouble with an address or two, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Mr. Kelly, go ahead.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Mr. Chair, with the urgency of the days that are so limited here, could you tell us if you have confirmation of the acceptance of our invitations to both ministers for next Tuesday?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Clerk, you will have to answer that. We don't have acceptances yet. I understand it's under discussion, but we'll push the issue, Pat.

With that, thank you, folks, for a very interesting exchange today, and thank you for all the comments. I get a bit embarrassed by them.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think you have to work on your speech, but before we formally adjourn, I think you're first up in the speeches tonight. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I am, and I have a little work to do there.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Do a filibuster, do a filibuster.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If you have a chance to do some funny business as chair, everyone's in love with you tonight, so this was your opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It was, yes. Thank you all, and goodbye.

The meeting is adjourned.