Evidence of meeting #57 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kpmg.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Serge Bilodeau  Chartered Professional Accountant, KPMG

4 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

It was Mr. Ste-Marie.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Sorry. Yes.

Gabriel, go ahead.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I would like to make a statement, following the reading of the two letters received. This statement will last about five minutes, which can be deducted from my speaking time.

Before I make my statement, I will let my two colleagues who have raised their hands, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Julian, make their interventions. Then, if it is agreeable to the committee, I will make my statement, which will last about five minutes.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Yes. I think we were going to allow you time for that during the regular question rounds. We can wiggle that in now, and maybe when Mr. Bilodeau comes back on we'll see where we're at.

We'll go to you first, Pat Kelly, then Peter Julian and Gabriel.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I was only going to ask procedurally how written questions would be put to those witnesses.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Procedurally, Mr. Kelly, and I could be wrong on this too, I think we would decide among ourselves at an in camera session what kinds of questions we want to send and then come to some kind of consensus on what they should be. Then we would have the clerk send them to the individuals directly.

That would be my thought. The clerk or anyone else might have other ideas, but that's how I think it would be done.

Peter Julian.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, I believe Mr. Ste-Marie is going to move a motion.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I'm not sure yet.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

All right. If he doesn't do it, maybe I will have to.

The idea is to ask once again the questions we asked KPMG last month and to meet this summer to get the answers. I think this idea makes a lot of sense. Also, given the motion we passed last week, we will likely be provided with more documents in a few weeks. There will be an opportunity to have meetings this summer to follow up on all the information that has been released.

Mr. Ste-Marie told me about a motion that would formally ask KPMG to answer these questions that were not answered at our first meeting. I don't know if they will be answered today, because 35 minutes have gone by and they still haven't.

I wanted to intervene to say that, in my opinion, it was important for the committee to make this request.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

On the questions, if I could put it this way, I did say that maybe the committee could meet and there could be some consensus on questions, but actually, at a committee meeting members can ask what they like. They don't need consensus to ask questions. We would maybe have to go to members and have them put questions, feed them in, and send them out that way, through the analysts and the clerk. That might be better.

Gabriel, I still don't see Mr. Bilodeau, so if you want to go to your statement, we can do that. If he comes in, we will hold him. I think you wanted five minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Before I make that statement, if I may, Mr. Chair, I would be prepared to move the motion to which Mr. Julian was referring, if the clerk can confirm that he has received the motion by email, which he can distribute to colleagues.

So you should have the version in both languages shortly. In the meantime, I will read the motion and move it to see if you agree.

As my colleague Mr. Peter Julian said, when the representative from KPMG Canada appeared, I asked some questions. Afterwards, the clerk sent them in writing, and then we received two letters from the lawyer representing KPMG that raised some points, but didn't answer most of the questions.

Therefore, I would move that the committee adopt the following motion and, if appropriate, that these matters be referred to KPMG, along with the letter provided to us by the law clerk and parliamentary counsel of the House regarding committee rights and privileges.

Here is the motion:

That the Finance Committee ask KPMG Canada the following questions, and expects a response by August 1, 2021. KPMG Canada may submit its responses with confidential client information redacted, making sure to submit a non-redacted version to the Law Clerk for verification. 1. KPMG has set up tax strategies that provide a financial vehicle enabling some of its clients to reduce their tax payable. For each case in which KPMG Canada created or helped create, directly or indirectly, one or more corporations in the Isle of Man, thereby enabling one or more Canadian taxpayers to conceal money or to reduce their tax payable, please provide the committee with the following: a) All documents used in these strategies; b) A list of the corporations that were created through these strategies; c) A list of the officers and directors involved in these strategies; d) The number of strategies and the number of individuals who benefited from them, directly or indirectly; and e) The fees that KPMG received for each strategy. 2. In addition, please provide all of the above information for each similar strategy using jurisdictions other than the Isle of Man, making sure to indicate the jurisdiction for each case. 3. Please provide for each KPMG Canada client the conclusions of each file with CRA, including taxes reimbursed, incurred interest, and penalties for each taxpayer 4. Did KPMG Canada ask another corporation, KPMG Isle of Man, or any other corporation to create, directly or indirectly, one or more of the four corporations registered in the Isle of Man under the names Shashqua, Sceax, Katar, and Spatha? If so, which ones, and how? For that purpose, we ask that KPMG Canada interview staff members who may have information on this subject, and to not limit its research to the last ten years. 5. Did KPMG Canada directly or indirectly contribute to, or participate in, the creation or use of one or more of these four corporations? If so, which ones, and how? For that purpose, we ask that KPMG Canada interview staff members who may have information on this subject, and to not limit its research to the last ten years.

That is the motion. As I say, if the committee adopts it, I propose that these questions be sent to KPMG, along with the letter that the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House has provided us.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

The motion is in order, because it is on the business that we're dealing with.

Do all members have a copy of the motion? I didn't get it all read, myself, yet.

In any event, go ahead, Mr. Julian.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, I don't really think we need to spend a lot of time talking about this. These are the kinds of questions that we have been asking from the beginning. KPMG have indicated that they are willing to answer questions. They have yet to actually answer the questions, though.

I do think we have a responsibility as a committee to actually lay that out in written form, as they have sometimes requested, so that we get the answers. I like the timeline as well, of August 1, in Mr. Ste-Marie's motion. We will be getting other information over the course of the summer, and I think this will be important and germane to our work.

I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on this. I'd certainly be very willing that we adopt the motion.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

All right. It's open for further discussion or questions for Gabriel. Does anybody have anything they want to raise?

It would be better if we had had a little longer to see it beforehand, Gabriel, but it is what it is.

Go ahead, Mr. Fraser.

June 17th, 2021 / 4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Mr. Chair, just as we did on the last day, I don't think we need to have an extensive debate or a formal vote. I expect, unless a member thinks differently from me on this committee, that it will likely pass without further debate.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are we all in agreement that the letters be sent on behalf of the committee?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I have one more question.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

There's one more question. Who's that?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

It's Tamara. I forget how to....

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Yes, I can't see you when you're hiding in that room.

Go ahead, Ms. Jansen. The floor is yours.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I can't wait until you can come and join us.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Me too.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'm just wondering about number three. It almost sounds like you want to have all the files that KPMG has on every Canadian client, so I just wanted to confirm. It's in regard to the beginning of the motion. I think it's number three where it says that.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

It's a very good question.

This point is embedded in the entire application. This is really about the strategies that KPMG has created for Canadian clients that have used shell companies and have been discussed with Canada Revenue Agency officials, as Mr. André Lareau mentioned last Tuesday. He was talking about 16 clients, while the Canada Revenue Agency representatives mentioned about 20 or so of them. If I'm not mistaken, it's more in that range. It's not a general fishing expedition; it's really related to the study we're talking about.

I hope this clarification answers your question.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Chair.