Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I cannot agree with you more, Mr. Darby.

This also leads me to ask a question of Mr. Harvey, because I know he is doing a lot of work on the green transition of small and medium-sized businesses.

Mr. Harvey, can you tell us more about that and why it is important to invest in our small and medium-sized businesses to enable their green transition?

Some might say they are not the largest emitters, but the point seems critical to me and I would like to hear from you on this topic.

[Pascal Harvey]

Thank you, Mrs. Chatel.

It is critical for businesses to be on the cutting edge of the green transition, because it is about preparing for the future and moving to a new economy. In 2022 and soon in 2023, we cannot continue as we did even before the pandemic. So we have to change our mentality and our practices. Obviously, there is a cost to this. I would even draw a parallel, Mrs. Chatel, if I may, with the succession in business. Aging companies must transform their business model to allow young entrepreneurs or potential successors to come and be part of this process.

It is wrong to think that companies that act like they did 10 years ago are going to be attractive in the marketplace. It simply is a matter of competitiveness. Since they have a foothold in communities and businesses, the SADCs and CAEs know very well their needs. They can offer support either by referring businesses to existing programs or by developing new programs. This was the case for the Going Green program, implemented by our network in collaboration with Canada Economic Development.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.

Would it be possible to send us the details of your green economic transition proposals for small and medium-sized businesses? I'm talking about the Going Green program, but also the other proposals that you mentioned earlier.

[Pascal Harvey]

I will be happy to do so.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left? I put my timer on this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Ms. Chatel, you have one minute left of your six minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I have one minute left. Excellent.

Mr. Freedman, thank you very much. I'm very glad I was able to hear your great presentation.

Could you tell us about the digitization of radio stations? How does that work in practice with the digitization of everything?

[Alex Freedman]

This is something that stations have a lot of experience with.

Twenty years ago, I was the manager of CJLO, which broadcast over the Internet. There is a very small transmitter, but otherwise everything is on the Internet. The station has been operating that way for 20 years.

We have always been innovators in community radio. It is vitally important. As I mentioned, we are livestreaming, podcasting—we're all there. We have stations that have been doing this for a very, very long time. But community radio is unique. It has to also exist on the transmitter towers, because we haven't gotten broadband to all parts of Canada. In the moment of an emergency, we do not have that sort of connection, and we need to make sure that we are there. We are at the front lines for the emergencies.

We live in both worlds, but our stations have always been developers and innovators when it comes to digital technology. In many cases, campus stations' entire audience is that new generation that lives on the Internet.

These have always been the innovators in the broadcasting industry. We just need support to do better.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chatel. Your time is up.

We will now hear from the Bloc.

MP Ste-Marie, you have up to six minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, let me acknowledge the witnesses who are attending the meeting in person.

Mrs. Potter, Mr. Breton, and Mr. Freedman, thank you for attending.

I also thank Mr. Staples, Mr. Darby, and Mr. Harvey, who are with us virtually.

We have a most interesting panel, with a rich content. I think a lot of your recommendations will be included in our report. I also believe that we will be able to join hands across party lines to pass the right measures.

I have to tell you that Mr. Chambers gave me the famous flying pig socks. I think we all have a pair now, and anything is possible with these socks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Everybody needs those socks, yes, Monsieur Ste-Marie.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That was a joke for the committee members.

My first questions will be for Mr. Breton.

Mr. Breton, thank you for your introduction. We spoke briefly before this session began. Things are moving fast in the electrification of transportation.

If I understand well what you said in your presentation, Canada recently moved from 8th to 13th place. Change is occurring quickly. Is Canada doing enough?

Could you go back to the key challenges, particularly those that relate to your recommendations?

[Daniel Breton]

Canada is doing much more than other countries.

It's been almost 20 years since I started talking to people in the federal government about transportation electrification. For many years, not much happened. But things have picked up in the last two years. Minister Champagne is making regular announcements. You see it all over the place, across Canada. It's extremely promising.

The reality is that things are moving extremely fast. You only have to look at what is happening in the United States, Japan and China. These countries are way ahead of the rest of the world in terms of transportation electrification. You can also look at what is happening now in Europe. In fact, we really have to hurry up to catch up with everyone if we want to remain a leader.

We do, however, have a considerable advantage, which is our critical minerals network, Canada has a very interesting potential. We need to develop them responsibly and in collaboration with First Nations. I think that's a must. We cannot use the shift towards electric mobility to, once again, ignore the needs and considerations of First Nations, Inuit and Métis. This is extremely important.

The development of charging infrastructure is also a challenge that we want to focus on, particularly charging infrastructure for heavy-duty vehicles.

An excellent program was announced this summer. It deals with incentives for the purchase of medium and heavy vehicles across Canada. This is great news, and we applauded Minister Alghabra's announcement. However, we believe that a network of charging stations must also be developed for heavy-duty vehicles, which do not have the same needs as the vehicles ordinary Canadians drive.

Just a few weeks ago, a report was released by Natural Resources Canada regarding the charging infrastructure needs we will have in 2025 and 2030. They are talking about 50,000 Level 2 charging stations and public fast-charging stations in 2025, and about 200,000 in 2030.

We do not want only funding, but also targets. The federal government has announced that it wants to adopt a zero-emission standard to get light-duty electric vehicle sales to 20% by 2026, 60% by 2030, and 100% by 2035. So the infrastructure needs to follow.

Figures were brought up by some stakeholders, but are not realistic. However, serious studies have been done for the Quebec government by ICCT, the International Council on Clean Transportation. Another study was done by Dunsky for Natural Resources Canada.

For my part, I work regularly with the Quebec government and with Hydro-Québec. Let's face it: in Quebec, we are blessed with charging infrastructure, much like British Columbia. In the rest of the country, it is as well developed. We need to make sure we develop the network across the country.

There is one thing to keep in mind. Charging infrastructure for light and heavy electric vehicles will become an essential service in a few years, like electricity. This will go beyond a simple economic need. In all regions of Quebec and Canada, people will want to have charging infrastructure everywhere, which is not the case now. Ontario has obviously fallen behind in the last four years because of a government that decided to stop the development of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles.

There's also an aspect that I think has been missing. Yes, you want to develop an electric vehicle industry, but—I've heard colleagues talk about this—everything about consumer education and training for workers and future workers is extremely important. I was recently talking about this with people from Unifor and the FTQ, the Quebec Federation of Labour. I was telling them that, if we want to help workers who are in declining sectors...

There is no denying that some companies decide to stay frozen in time. They say their business model is done this way and they're not going to change it. We've seen what happened to Kodak, Blockbuster and other companies.

New sectors are emerging. Let us remember that Tesla was a small business a few years ago. Today, it has become a large company because of its foresight. Companies that have a more old-school model are in danger of either being overtaken or disappearing altogether within a few years.

I can give other examples. In Ontario, Li‑Cycle is just getting started, but is growing by leaps and bounds. There's Lion Electric, which had five employees when I was in the Quebec government and they were given their first grant. That company now has hundreds of employees and will have thousands in a few years.

The SMEs and people who are thinking and building the future of transportation electrification and sustainable mobility are the ones prodding the big established companies into moving forward.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

That was very interesting and comprehensive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Breton and Mr. Ste-Marie.

MP Boulerice from the NDP is now with us.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Welcome to our committee.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I am pleased to be here, today.

I thank all the experts and witnesses who are with us.

I have at least two rounds of questions. I'll start with Mr. Staples from the Canadian Health Coalition.

You correctly pointed out that in the confidence and supply agreement that we negotiated with the minority government, health issues were central to the priorities put forward by the NDP, including dental coverage for children. This year it is up to $1,300 per child. Next year, it will be teenagers, seniors and people with disabilities. In 2024, the insurance will apply to the most disadvantaged and to the middle class.

For the coalition, what does providing accessible dental care for the most disadvantaged mean?

What would you like to see in the 2023 budget to ensure the next steps for this new program?

[Steven Staples]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Boulerice.

It's a very interesting agreement. I think we can't understate the importance of the potential of the provisions that are in the confidence and supply agreement between the NDP and the Liberals. Really, we commend the cross-party co-operation that brought this about, and your work as well in the NDP in putting the proposals forward, but it also requires two to tango, as they say [Technical difficulty—Editor] this is moving forward, and from what we're hearing, there has been some good co-operation.

This is what Canadians want. It shows that when we work together, we can get deliverables. Dental care is a critical issue. Pharmacare is as well, as are safe long-term care and investments in the health care crisis. All four of the main health care points are important. It will take three years to make significant advancements on that.

With dental care, half a million children will benefit from this initial benefit that is being proposed for this budget. I am glad the government has done its very best to keep to the timelines. It seems to be satisfactorily meeting the terms of the agreement. I think that is very important. One thing we do know is that dental care is very much related to your overall health. It can help alleviate wait times and the backlog that's in the hospital. It keeps people out of the emergency room.

As well, this benefit is desperately needed when we look at inflation and the costs that are being borne by Canadians. It's going to be another part of the package to help people.

I am a little concerned, though, that there may be people not benefiting from it, because it is a means-tested program. While we know it's important to have this program—this is progress—we do hope that at some point it will be extended to include everyone, maybe not in budget 2023, but certainly the commitments of the Liberals that have led up to now....

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Staples.

You opened the door for me by talking about prescription drug coverage. That is also part of our negotiations and the results we have achieved.

I am an MP from Montreal. In Quebec, there is already a prescription drug insurance program, but it is a hybrid one, both public and private. This causes a number of problems, especially for part-time workers. That's why the FTQ, CSN and CSQ, the major labour unions in Quebec, are calling for a public and universal program.

This is part of the agreement. In your view, as we look ahead to the next steps for pharmacare, particularly in the 2023 budget, should we be guided by the recommendations in the Hoskins Report, the Final Report of the Advisory Council on the Implementation of a National Pharmacare Program?

[Steven Staples]

Yes, I have some thoughts on that.

I want to acknowledge the work that the many organizations in Quebec have done in publicizing the need for a universal program that takes the current system in Quebec and moves it forward into a stronger, more robust program. I also want to acknowledge that there are deficiencies within the Quebec program that cannot be allowed to remain and that the Hoskins report, the 2019 advisory council report on pharmacare, is really the pathway. It is an excellent report that has been endorsed by all organizations in every province. Many organizations have, and medical professionals have also, even including former ministers of health. Liberal Party ministers of health have advocated for this program. In fact, the plan put forward came from this government itself.

We are glad and relieved that the NDP, through this agreement, have breathed new life into pharmacare. We want to see $3.5 billion put into getting essential medicines covered, and we believe that this money put forward for the provinces and territories will help overcome resistance in those provinces to play ball and to move forward on pharmacare. It may be part of a larger discussion in terms of other programs or other increases through the Canada health transfer. I don't know what that might look like. We have talked about a new grand bargain in terms of increased funding on the CHT for the provinces and territories in return for co-operating on these provincial programs, especially pharmacare.

However, $3.5 billion is the number that Hoskins put forward for initial essential medicines, and we would go with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Staples and MP Boulerice.

That was an excellent first round, members and witnesses. We got a lot of information.

We are moving into our second round. In this second round, we have the Conservatives up first, and it will be MP Lawrence for five minutes, please.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses appearing today. I greatly appreciate their presence.

Most of my questions will focus on you, Ms. Potter, and tourism. I'm looking forward to a discussion.

We have a new leader who is putting people first and putting the tourism sector first, and we want to make sure that the people in your industry are fully supported.

I want to discuss some of the Liberal policies and the impact on your industry in particular. We know that the carbon tax started at $20 and now is going up to $170 per tonne. That will be an increase of 750%.

I assume there are many people within the tourism industry who are either dependent on people who are arriving to Canada, transporting within Canada, or maybe even providing the transportation. Do you believe this rapid increase—actually a triple, triple, triple increase—of the carbon tax will have a detrimental impact on the tourism industry?

[Beth Potter]

I would like to say that, within the tourism industry, we're looking at ways in which we can do things differently. The opportunity for us to kind of lead the way when it comes to more sustainable practices, practices that lead to a smaller carbon footprint overall, is certainly at the top of our agenda, and it's something that we are working with our global partners on through the World Travel & Tourism Council and the UNWTO.

I would have to say that, when we look at any kind of increased cost to businesses, anything that is going to stand in the way of the visitors that we're looking at to come to Canada, of course, it's something that is detrimental to the industry.