Finance Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2022

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis, for being here with us and for bringing this bill forward.

Speaking for me, and I think for the government, frankly, I think we've demonstrated that we're very supportive of tax deductions for workers. I say that not just in conceptual terms but in tangible terms, through Bill C-19, which was passed by the House and which offers tax deductions for travel, relocation expenses and the like. I think that gives you a sense of where I'm at and where a lot of the members on this side are at in terms of making sure we're supporting workers through tax deductions.

Something like a labour mobility deduction is so supported by members on different sides of the aisle because we understand there's a need to train and retain skilled tradespeople. You spoke to that a little bit in your responses to Mr. Morantz. The deduction that you're proposing in this bill or the deduction that's in Bill C-19, the Budget Implementation Act, helps to incentivize people to get into and stay in the field.

Another important part of these jobs and the attractiveness of them is the fact that they offer good wages and real protections. A big part of that is workers' rights, which are protected in our Charter of Rights. If there weren't those protections in the Charter of Rights, it's hard for me to imagine that many of the workers we're talking about here today—whom Bill C-19 helps and whom your bill seeks to help—would have the wages and the protections they have today.

You've spoken here in the committee about how you want to encourage people to join the trades and how that's part of the intent of the bill. On that point, I want to ask this: Don't you think there's a chilling effect on Canadians who might think about getting into the trades when they see the provincial government, in this case the Premier of Ontario, using the notwithstanding clause to pre-emptively suspend workers' fundamental rights, which are so essential to achieving the wages and protections that we all believe in?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Baker, for your question and for your opening remarks. I look forward to getting the support of our Liberal colleagues as well.

Going forward to your question, I was elected to represent Essex in the federal capacity, and I really don't have any comments with regard to the province because I'm not part of Premier Ford's team. I don't sit at their table. I don't know what discussions they've had. Therefore, I'm quite frankly not going to comment on that.

I really appreciate the fact, sir, that you were listening so keenly to my opening remarks. What I will comment on is how important it is to get our youth, the future generations, the proper training. We need to get them exposed to skilled trades at a very early age because—you're correct, sir— they do provide excellent wages. Almost right out of college they have a full-time job. That's the way we need to incentivize this, and that's another reason I'm so proud to bring it forward.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I guess I can't help but say, look, we've heard members of the Conservative side and their opening remarks here at the outset about how they want to support workers—you spoke about how you want to support workers—but, again, those wages and those protections in large part, in my view, come from protections in the charter. I don't think it's okay for us to remain silent.

Mr. Lewis, respectfully, I know we want to talk about your bill, but I've heard all the members in this committee, all the MPs, speak on provincial matters all the time and express positions on provincial matters. I don't think we should allow the fact that we're federal MPs to prevent us from speaking out on what we believe is right.

I guess what I'm saying is that we hear MPs on the Conservative side saying they support workers, but when the notwithstanding clause is being used by the Premier of Ontario to suspend the rights that fundamentally protect the wages and the quality of work of workers, they're silent on it. I guess I'm asking how you would square the assertions of your Conservative colleagues that they support workers when they're not wanting to speak out for their fundamental rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Could we have a very short answer, please?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Baker, again for your question.

Here's how I support workers and here's how Conservatives and, I'm quite sure, many people around this table support workers: We bring solutions to the table as opposed to digging up problems. Our solution is to bring creative ideas to the table to get people working.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Baker.

Now we're moving to the Bloc and we have MP Ste-Marie for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to build on the last exchange.

Mr. Lewis, I enjoyed hearing you say that if you had wanted to get involved in provincial politics, you would have run in the provincial election.

As for me, I was not elected to evaluate the quality of snow removal in the streets of the city of Joliette, in my riding, nor to evaluate how health services should be delivered or how nurses should organize themselves. On the other hand, I was elected to ensure that Ottawa contributes to the funding, as this is a federal responsibility.

Since I have been elected and have been in Parliament, there have been two occasions when the federal government has used special legislation against Canada Post workers. Each time, I was on their side and I denounced the federal government's lack of respect for basic labour laws. This is where it played out.

Let me return to your important bill and my question.

There are people who live in rural or remote areas who are showing some fear about your bill. They think that if there are deductions for workers who come from far away to work, maybe the construction people from their part of the country won't be hired before the others. So they are afraid that there will be competition and that, consequently, there will be less work on construction sites for workers from the regions.

Do you think this is a valid fear? What do you have to say to these people to reassure them?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I would suggest first and foremost that, no, it's not well founded. The only reason I say that so strongly, sir, is that we have such a labour shortage in this country from coast to coast to coast, this will only benefit this area.

Second, I would say competition is a good thing. It's very healthy for democracy. It keeps people honest. It keeps companies honest. It allows the tax dollar to be stretched just a touch further. I think it's a great opportunity and I would not be concerned about the folks in the rural areas. If anything, if their work dries up, sir, it will give them an opportunity to go to another place as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Monsieur Ste-Marie.

Now we go to MP Blaikie for the NDP for two and a half minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis, for being here today and for taking on this work that has been advocated for by others. I'm going to give a shout-out to my former colleague Scott Duvall, who presented a similar bill a couple of Parliaments before this one, and of course to my colleague Matthew Green from the NDP, who also presented a very similar bill. I will note my own work around this table when Bill C-19 was here in order to ensure there was fair tax treatment, as Mr. Chambers was saying, equal to or certainly like the kind of treatment that businesses get for writing down certain kinds of expenses. There is a long track record of supporting this kind of work, and I thank you for your contribution to it.

On the question we've been discussing when it comes to collective bargaining rights, I do think it is disgraceful to see the notwithstanding clause abused in this way. I share Monsieur Ste-Marie's incredulity at seeing Liberals and Conservatives argue over this point, because I've watched Liberals legislate people back to work.

I think the use of the notwithstanding clause is a relevant federal issue, because this is a precedent. The notwithstanding clause can be used by the federal government as much as it can by provincial governments. If we care about workers' rights to bargain collectively in Canada, it matters when a provincial government does this. It sets a precedent that can be used by other provinces and by the federal government.

This is something a province is doing that will have consequences in not only its own jurisdiction. This is something that a province is doing that will have repercussions for workers across the country if either another provincial government or the federal government decides to pull this kind of stunt one day. Therefore, I do think we should be properly concerned with this issue around this table. I don't think we can just write it off as a provincial issue. The notwithstanding clause is not simply a provincial issue. It's an issue of our constitution, which applies right across the country and to all levels of government.

Now you know what I think about that.

As an IBEW member and construction electrician in Manitoba, I just want to circle back to Manitoba, which you mentioned in your opening remarks. I recall that before 2016 we had a lot of local employment. In fact, our hall was trying to get more and more people to travel to Manitoba because we had a provincial government that was investing in infrastructure. That meant not only that people were getting paid to be on publicly funded infrastructure projects in Manitoba but also that we had very high private sector confidence and very high levels of private sector investment.

The government changed in 2016. We saw the public financing of infrastructure projects go away. Then we started seeing a lot less private sector investment in places like downtown Winnipeg. Then we saw high levels of local unemployment, persistent unemployment, even as the government was quite happy to invite non-union contractors from outside the province to come do work in Manitoba.

We also have to think about the role governments play in funding good public works with good requirements around good pay and good benefits when we talk about whether people are going to have to travel for work and whether they have good work available to them.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry I ran out of time, and we don't have time for a response.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Blaikie.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We enjoyed your comments.

Now we are moving to the Conservatives for five minutes and we have MP Roberts with us.

Welcome.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you for having me.

I am so excited, Mr. Lewis, that you're bringing this bill up. I'll tell you what my issues are. I have a lot of issues with long-term care. As you know, we are struggling in many provinces, especially in my backyard, with accommodations for seniors. A lot of my families want to keep their parents with them. When one spouse passes away, the children will take on the responsibility of taking care of the other parent. I have a particular issue that just came up today, as a matter of fact. I did not know I was going to be on this committee, so it's a perfect question for me to ask because I'm so excited about this bill. I'm going to go back to talk to you about the shortage, the fact that we do not have enough labour to help create these accommodations.

Someone whose father passed away about eight months ago contacted my office today. Her mother is still okay but needs minimal help, but not to the point where they have to put her into long-term care. She wants to adapt her home to accommodate her mother so that she can do for her mother what her mother did for her growing up. Here's the catch. She priced out what it would cost to put in an in-law suite and she was able to shop around. The wait time is 18 months. I said, “Wow, that's a long time for them to even get started and then you're looking at probably another three, four or maybe even more months to complete it. Why is that?” It's because there's a shortage. There are not enough people to complete the work.

This bill would not only encourage young people and all people, women included, to get involved in the trades, but it would also help with the situation we currently have with infrastructure, not just in my backyard but, I think, right across this country. Would you agree?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Yes. Thank you. I would absolutely agree. The reason I can say that with so much confidence is that I just had the basement of my house done so my children could continue to live with me and expand because they can't afford a house. Do I ever know about how difficult it is to get skilled trades. Although they did a fantastic job, it's awfully difficult to get drywallers, electricians and carpenters, and the list goes on.

I very much respect and appreciate your story, but I would suggest that it is certainly not just in the King—Vaughan area. I would suggest that it is across Canada.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

It is.

I'm probably older than most of you people here. I can remember how in high school they used to have a program that would introduce the trades to individuals to get them encouraged, because—let's be honest—not everybody can be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. That's something that would encourage people and maybe give insight into it.

Would you say that, if we could educate people and attract them to the trades by telling them, “Hey, you're not going to be out of pocket. If you do take a job that's 120 kilometres away, we will accommodate your expenses because we need you,” that would assist with getting more individuals into the trades?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Absolutely that would assist more. We have to create a space, a place for folks to see themselves going forward. When I say folks, I'm talking about young men and women. When I was at the Gordie Howe bridge, I was very excited to see how many young women were working in the trades. That excited the heck out of me, so here's a golden opportunity for us to create a space for them to be in. They want to be there. They're excited to be there. They want to make good money, but they need the support going forward. Absolutely it will help that.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I'm excited about this bill and I'm also excited about the fact that you're open to amendments, because I think it will benefit not only the province of Ontario but everyone across Canada. I also think it would encourage and give an opportunity for everyone to get involved in the trades. Doing something like this so people aren't going to be out of pocket, I really believe, will help our infrastructure, especially in my community where I have a lot of seniors. The last two or two and a half years have been very difficult for them and they don't want to go live in a home. I'm involved in long-term care homes because I volunteer there. I'm not saying that they're bad, but these seniors want to stay with their families. I really think this bill will encourage people to work and will allow the opportunity for the infrastructure to be created so that people can take care of their parents.

I applaud you for it and I look forward to getting it done. Thank you.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Roberts.

We're going to the Liberals.

MP Chatel, you will be the last questioner for MP Lewis for this panel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To start with, any provincial government can invoke this clause. They can decide not to respect the fundamental rights of workers under the Charter of Rights. This is the Charter of Rights for Canada. Of course it is an issue for all of us. It's very important that we all stand together to protect workers' rights. I hope our Conservative colleagues will join their voices with ours.

My riding...

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'm just looking for relevance. I hope we get the same thing from the Liberal side. They actually put workers back to work, like at the Port of Montreal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's debate, MP Masse. We will provide....

MP Chatel.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

The port of Montreal was actually legislated back to work.