Fisheries Committee on March 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I call the meeting to order.

We have a quorum for witnesses, so we'll begin. Since we've been in anticipation of your arrival over the past number of weeks, we want to start and have plenty of time to pose some questions.

I'd like to welcome our guests. We almost think Mr. Bevan is part of the committee here after this week, but it's great to see you again, as well as Mr. Hegge and Ms. Dansereau.

I will give you the opportunity for some opening remarks, and then we'll open the floor up for questions. Once again, thank you for appearing here this morning.

The floor is yours.

[Claire Dansereau, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members. I am actually very pleased to be with you today to get to know you better and to have you get to know me a little bit in my new capacity as associate deputy minister with Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I was going to introduce my colleagues, Cal Hegge and Dave Bevan, but as you said, you know them well.

They're here today because, as you know, I've only been in the department a couple of months and I don't pretend to know things that I don't know. So if there are specific questions on matters of interest to the committee for which I don't have answers, they will be able to help us get to those answers.

In my time at Fisheries and Oceans Canada I've been most impressed by the passion of your committee. I thank you for the constructive advice you have been offering, both in your current structure and over the years. It's been very helpful to the department.

My understanding is that I'm here principally to introduce myself to you and to bring life to the CV that you have in front of you.

I was born in Montreal and raised in Baie-Comeau. My father was a surveyor for Hydro-Quebec. He died when I was very young. So we returned to Montreal. I was educated as a scientist, and you will note from my experience that I have spent most of my professional career on the west coast, in British Columbia. During that time, I worked with resource-dependent communities, single-industry towns, essentially, primarily in the forestry sector. I worked with people who relied on forestry for a livelihood and were facing significant changes in their industry. These were Canadians who were doing their utmost to deal with a fundamental shift in their economy in the 1980s and 1990s.

These shifts were brought about by new environmental practices, changing markets and demographics, and new pressures from many sources. In fact, many of the issues that fishing communities continue to face today are much like the ones I addressed in the forestry sector. I have extensive experience working with those communities.

I came to Fisheries and Oceans from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, where I was the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister of Socio-Economic Policies and Regional Operations. In that position, I was responsible for most of the on-reserve social programs south of the 60th parallel. The annual budget for my sector was over $5 billion dollars, and I was accountable for the operations of the seven regional offices. Between the regions and headquarters, I was responsible for approximately 2,000 employees. I was also responsible for emergency management preparedness for the department.

I bring international experience with me, having served as Vice-President and Special Advisor to the President of the Canadian International Development Agency, and five years as Executive Director of CUSO, one of Canada's first and largest volunteer-sending organizations.

While at the Canadian International Development Agency, I was responsible to the President for developing a vision for a new priority branch, as well as its implementation. As the Executive Director at CUSO, I was accountable to the Board of Directors, the members and the donors for the quality of policies and programs. I was fully accountable for the financial soundness of the organization and its human resource management in a unionized and decentralized environment.

Prior to that I was deputy minister of transportation in British Columbia, after having served as vice-president of a crown corporation in charge of reinvesting in forestry communities.

As a provincial deputy minister I provided ongoing strategic and policy advice to the minister and cabinet on transportation and related policy and programming issues. I was accountable for all financial, administrative, and human resource management issues for the ministry. The ministry budget was $800 million annually, with 2,600 staff situated around the province.

As the vice-president of operations at Forest Renewal B.C., the crown corporation of which I spoke, I reported directly to the board chair and CEO. The crown corporation was decentralized across the province, and I was responsible for the development of programs, the establishment of six regional offices, and province-wide formal consultation mechanisms for policy and program development. My budget was $200 million per annum. I had 120 staff.

You can see from this list that I have spent a considerable portion of my career managing in a decentralized environment, experience that I think will serve us all well at Fisheries and Oceans. I am confident that the mix of experience and skills that I bring will serve me well in my new role, and hopefully will well serve the minister, the deputy, and the department.

As you know, there is no standard definition of the role of the Associate Deputy Minister nor is there a standard job description. As always, the Deputy Minister remains the accounting officer for the department and chairs its management committees. I am vice-chair to those committees and act in her stead, in her absence.

The Associate role is perceived as affording the Deputy Minister opportunities for workload sharing with the Associate. In turn, these opportunities provide the Associate with a chance to make significant contributions to the department, while rounding out some of their development needs.

I consider myself quite fortunate to arrive at Fisheries and Oceans Canada, as my duties are as I'd like them to be. They include direct management of key files, such as gravel extraction from the Fraser River, to complementing and supporting the leadership of our Deputy Minister.

In a department that concerns itself with a wide range of issues, from improving international fisheries governance to managing in-land waterways, serving alongside this Deputy Minister promises to be as rewarding as it will be interesting.

I have begun visiting our department and coast guard operations. In fact, I spent the night of my last birthday aboard a coast guard icebreaker sailing from Amherstberg to Sarnia, Ontario. That's not how I planned on spending my birthday, but it turned out to be a fascinating experience and a great learning experience for me.

I realize marine safety is one of many key services we provide Canadians from coast to coast to coast. That trip certainly gave me pause to appreciate the breadth of Fisheries and Oceans' responsibilities across Canada and the importance of our work, from fisheries and oceans management and policy to aquaculture, science, and small craft harbours.

I also had the opportunity to accompany the minister and the deputy minister to the Boston seafood show recently, and I attended a meeting of the Atlantic Council of Fisheries and Aquaculture Ministers. I've had the pleasure of meeting many of the department's lead scientists at a national management meeting last month and in my travels.

In Boston I was afforded the opportunity to meet with many industry representatives and to hear them eloquently describe their reality. It was highly instructive for me.

I can tell you that everyone I've met at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been a true professional. As time permits, I will continue to visit our regions and operations. I'm planning to visit the department's regional offices in Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec in the very near future. In early April I will be visiting three arctic communities as part of the Inuit arctic tour. This program provides historic, economic, and social context to government officials whose work involves northern development.

All of this is to say that I'm sincerely looking forward to the opportunities and challenges ahead of me at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I also look forward very much to working with this committee and to the guidance you will provide.

Thank you for inviting me today. I'm here to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you very much.

I'm delighted that you enlightened us about what you did on your birthday, because I was wondering what you did in your spare time.

We'll start with our ten-minute round of questions. Please go ahead, Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Simms is opening.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you very much. You're very generous.

Ms. Dansereau, thank you very much.

I'm sure we could talk for hours, especially with the four members here from our party, because you seem to have an extensive background in forestry as well. We could go on and on. We have a lot in common.

I do want to say that it is pretty impressive, but I have a question. Did you say you haven't been to the Newfoundland and Labrador office yet?

[Claire Dansereau]

No.

I have a personal connection only in that I have a granddaughter, and her other grandparents are part from Newfoundland, part from Main-à-Dieu, Nova Scotia.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Really? We have connections everywhere. It's part of our world domination plan.

I do want to touch on an issue that is not specific to the east coast, but certainly is quite popular right now, which is of course the issue of combining and rationalization. What have you learned thus far about attempts for rationalization across this country in the fishery?

[Claire Dansereau]

As I'm sure you know, it's a very complicated issue. It's particularly complicated for somebody who comes from a different industrial sector such as forestry. I had a lot of experience with fisheries regulations when I was doing my forestry work, so I understand the regulatory environment as it applies to industrial development. But I admit I don't have a lot of experience on matters of combining or the inner workings of the industry itself and its various players, although I'm an active participant in the discussions and I understand that from the work that is happening right now in Newfoundland and Labrador there's a general satisfaction with the direction we are going on that. That to me is the main concern, that we protect the evolution of the industry and we protect the workers and the communities that are part of that industry. From what I can gather, based on my previous experience, we are going in that direction with this combining.

David can answer much more fully, but my sense is that there is general support for the direction in which we're going because it addresses certain needs within the industry.

[David Bevan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Clearly a number of fisheries in the Pacific have already gone to ITQ. In that situation the individual transferable quotas did result in adjusting the effort in accordance with the available quota and having more efficient use of the capital and labour in those fisheries. It did, however, have impacts on coastal communities in the west. In the east we do have enterprise allocations for the offshore. Again, that did result in a balance of the effort to the available resources for the offshore. Also, we have a number of ITQ and IQ fisheries in parts of the Atlantic. However, most of the Atlantic inshore fishery was conducted under the policy of maintaining core fishermen as the licence holders. That was designed to remove part-timers over time. As they left the fishery, their licences weren't transferable, so as they left, there would be a small reduction in the effort. But the core fishery policy did not allow one core fisherman to combine enterprises with another. It didn't allow one core fisherman to buy out the quotas of another, etc. The design of that policy was to maintain the employment and the effort in the coastal communities.

However, in the face of today's realities with the cost of energy, the dollar, and competition in China, etc., it has meant there's general consensus that we have to look at other ways of doing business. That's why the policy change announced April 12, 2007, was to allow fishing interests and fleets to consider ways they could combine enterprises. That's moved ahead in Newfoundland and Labrador with a policy that was designed there, after lots of consultations, to allow enterprises to be combined. Those discussions are going to take place in the rest of the Atlantic where those fisheries don't have individual quotas or transferable quotas to consider ways that we can combine.

The whole issue of preserving the independence of the inshore fleet in Atlantic Canada was designed to pull out from under the table all those trust agreements, etc., and put it all up top so we can all have a good discussion of where we are now and where we want to go. If we want to have combining in the fleets, that will be up to the fleets to consider and to consider the kinds of rules they want to impose upon themselves.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

One of things touched upon in Bill C-32 to the new and improved version of the Fisheries Act was it addressed some of the issues brought up from when it was Bill C-45. Are you familiar with the changes made to Bill C-32? Can you justify each and every one of the changes that were made?

[Claire Dansereau]

Are you asking me if I can justify each of them?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'll ask all three of you.

[Claire Dansereau]

I am familiar with some.

There was a desire that there be a much stronger recognition of fisheries as a common property resource, and that's been done.

There was a desire that the minister must take into consideration certain things, rather than may take into consideration certain things, and that has been done.

And I think there was an expectation that there would be continued recognition of the importance of fishery to the communities, and that's been done.

So I think the work that I have seen--

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

To the communities, was that the last point?

[Claire Dansereau]

Through the common property component, there's a recognition that many things must be taken into consideration and therefore communities will benefit as a result overall.

I think what people said in the consultations has been reflected in the changes. At least that's my understanding. Both Cal and David could add some more.

[David Bevan]

We received many, many comments. We made changes where there was a consensus. As you see from the changes from Bill C-45 to Bill C-32, there weren't a great number, but those were the areas where there had been consensus from the interested parties, stakeholders, etc. The rest of the comments could be diametrically opposed. For example, there are people wanting to have the allocations almost take on the conditions or properties of property, and others don't want that to take place at all. We have differing views from one end of the spectrum to the other. We've reflected the middle view, if you will, in the changes that were made, and we think this is where we do have consensus on the changes from Bill C-45 to Bill C-32.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Dansereau, you spent a lot of time in international development agencies. Your work with CIDA I'm sure was very, very helpful to you and to our international development assistance efforts. With the WTO and the draft rules regarding fishery subsidies, there are specific provisions put in place for subsidies to be able to be provided to developing countries. One of the things that struck me, and I'm sure your time with the Department of Indian Affairs would highlight this, is there are absolutely no provisions for aboriginal first nations' new access to fisheries through subsidies in the WTO draft guidelines. Does that surprise you?

[Claire Dansereau]

It's an interesting question. No, it doesn't surprise me, really. As you know, and as we talked about two days ago, the sections we are dealing with are bracketed. It's an attempt by the chair to get the conversation going; that's my read of what's happening on that. No, it doesn't surprise me, because I think it's taking a look at the industries as they currently exist, as opposed to going into how countries may change their internal allocations. So no, it doesn't surprise me.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

You don't feel there's a threat to the aboriginal fisheries strategy.

As you're probably also aware, just about every country engaged in the fishery--the European Union, the U.S., Japan--has actually filed with the WTO a formal discussion paper or policy considerations that they raise as concerns. Canada has not. Nothing has been filed by Canada. Just about every other country has actually filed something, and you can find this on the WTO website, but Canada has nothing in place. Does that surprise you?

[Claire Dansereau]

I think those are questions that are best put to the people who have come to you before, and that would be our foreign affairs department. You've had representation from that department here to address that. As you know, the sections you're talking about are part of a much broader discussion, so Canada's position will reflect its position on all of those. I can't speak for the Department of Foreign Affairs and when and how it will put forward its papers.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I think my time is up, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

We'll be back to you, I'm sure.

Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Good morning, Ms. Dansereau. It's a pleasure for me to see you. We nearly had to fight to get you to appear in committee for two hours, which made me lose my temper. I found it inconceivable that the legitimacy of such a request and the fact that the committee is master of its own agenda could be questioned. In that sense, that very much disappointed me. I got the impression that the department ultimately wanted to control the agenda of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, which is a committee of Parliament. And I can't accept that. That's the impression I got, since we've been wanting to meet you for quite a long time.

I said that at the outset, and I said it again, and I can look you squarely in the eye and say it again: we didn't ask you to appear in committee to conduct an inquisition, pick a fight or cast doubt on your appointment, not at all.

In view of what is currently happening and what could happen, I think it's important to have an opportunity to meet you in order to determine your administrative responsibilities and your vision of the fisheries file and to see how your experience could help you work through that. It's just that.

Consequently, I didn't at all appreciate the way the department reacted to your appearing for one or two hours. That's my first comment. Now matters are clear.

I've done some research on you to get a better idea of who we're dealing with, not to investigate you. I'd like to understand the path that has led you, with a certain enthusiasm, to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Your experience is quite different, in a different field. Earlier we talked about forestry and international work, in a way, with CUSO.

This isn't my case, but unfortunately people get the impression that Fisheries and Oceans isn't the most glorious department in the government. Some people aspire to work in the Department of Foreign Affairs, for example. That looks very good. Some ministers are no doubt very pleased to be in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Others may aspire to the Department of Defence.

How can we explain your enthusiasm for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you for that question, because it's very interesting. First, I apologize for being late.

It's true that it's sometimes hard to explain my career path. I see a very clear common theme running through it. When I decide to change jobs, it's because I've thought about it very seriously. Economic development in the rural regions is a passion for me. Forestry and transport inspire me as well. One of the reasons why I liked working in transport is that a good transportation system and a good road system are supports for economic development in Canada's rural regions. Forestry, transport and fisheries have common challenges, such as assisting the communities and individuals that want to work in the rural regions. There's a similarity for me.

It was somewhat the same thing when I worked internationally. I worked with communities in Africa and South America. They were also concerned about their own development.

Here's a little story that goes back to the start of my career. As you know, I studied microbiology at university. I am a microbiologist by training. My primary interest when I entered the public sector was... I knew that Canadians were extremely afraid of biotechnology. I thought it was important to get involved in developing rules for biotechnology. When I was in British Columbia, that work was being done in forestry. That's where I started my career in forestry. Now I'm very happy. A few weeks ago, I visited a lab in West Vancouver where they're working on biotechnology regulations. That was a return to the start of my career.

The department does a little bit of everything I'm interested in. In addition, as senior managers, the competencies and skills that we develop are transferable from one department to another. If you develop good, transparent management, good human resources management and good financial management, you can transfer that from one area to another.

I love the public service, and I love working in it. That's very important for me, and I could talk about it all day.