Evidence of meeting #43 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was great.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Ullrich  Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

We hear from him often.

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Getting back to the cost, then, you were mentioning earlier that the municipalities are feeling under some pressure, perhaps some obligation, to participate in funding. I think you also mentioned private-public partnerships. Is there anybody calling for PPPs right now?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

There isn't a groundswell for public-private partnerships. Frankly, it's been the people who are working on this. Obviously, you want to look at as wide a set of sources of funding as possible. We do think that if there were some significant transportation improvements they would benefit the Chicago area and mid-west economy. You all know how much trade we do with Canada as well. This is the kind of thing that perhaps the shipping industry and the transportation industry in general might be interested in making some investments in. Obviously, there'd have to be some return on this. Apparently the work that was done at the Port of Long Beach out in California attracted some fairly significant private partnership investment.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

When I look at the work that's being done around Chicago, I'm not seeing any legislation. I'm not seeing any elected official calling for PPPs. There's legislation right now in Congress to speed up the work of the Army Corps of Engineers, and nobody seems to be recommending PPPs there. So do you know how much Canadian shipping actually goes through the Chicago canal system?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

I do not. In fact, one of the real difficulties we had was getting origin and destination information on what is shipped through there. As a result, our work was a lot more difficult. Apparently a lot of this is considered proprietary information. We were able, from the Corps of Engineers, to get what's called “past the point”—what was coming in one direction or another and what was in the load—but we couldn't find out where it came from and where it was going, and that made things difficult.

I really don't know. My guess is there's probably not a huge amount that would go through that area from Canada, but I really don't know.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

So to get back to that, as you say, there would have to be a certain return. But we don't even know who might be using it, and we wouldn't even know who to approach to start a PPP at this point.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

So would you be calling for us to be looking at that more attentively or is there any way to actually get that information?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

No, I'm not calling for you to do that. I think we have a lot more homework to do on our side before I would consider approaching our good neighbours to the north on this.

Again, we're in the early stages of this, and I think a lot more work has to be done to determine whether that's viable.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Toone.

Ms. Davidson.

June 18th, 2012 / 5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Ullrich, for being here with us today.

We had a little discussion before we started, and you know this is certainly an area of great concern to my riding. Of course, our Mayor Bradley and our warden are part of your group.

Just so we're clear, your group works in an advisory capacity, does it? Who do you meet with? Who do you give advice to? Who do you pass your findings to?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

Basically, we will pass our findings to anyone who is willing to listen. We think our work is credible. We don't have any official government standing. We're a private, non-profit organization. We think our work has integrity and standing for itself.

Again, the major reason we did this—and we were approached to do this—was to do something that we thought could be done a lot faster than the normal government processes. We wanted to get the concept of the feasibility of this on the table, and the fact that this is a good, viable solution. We hope it will bring the regular processes to a decision sooner rather than later. But in terms of official standing, no, the U.S. government didn't ask us to do it.

I will say, though, that the governors of Illinois and Ohio, as well as the mayor of Chicago and the mayor of Grand Rapids, Michigan, were on our executive committee and oversaw the work. So they were involved, but it wasn't an act of the legislature or anything that had us do this work.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

I think it's great that you did it, and the fact that you have a report that's coming to us speaks very well for your organization.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

We've heard so many different things since we started this study. The one thing that's been common with everybody is that although Asian carp certainly isn't the only invasive species, it is the one that people most fear at this time.

The question about the physical barrier at Chicago causes a fair amount of discussion and maybe dissension because of the fact that it could be economically disruptive.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Who is responsible for what is another thing we've wrestled with at this committee.

What would your suggestions be as we move forward? The Canadian government has put money in as recently as the last couple of weeks to help with prevention and education, as two things. Can you tell us, as a committee, what direction you would hope we would be able to take, or in what direction you think we should go?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

Those two steps that you've already taken I think are critically important. A step that is under way—namely, advancing the science associated with understanding invasive species, and specifically Asian carp, and the kind of risk they present—I think is very important. So there are those two things.

This law enforcement side of things is critically important. I would hope that maybe some of the good work that has been done on the Canadian side could rub off on the U.S. side in terms of stricter enforcement of the Lacey Act. I think some kind of law enforcement exchange, possibly a memorandum of understanding with federal and provincial and possibly local authorities, particularly in places like Sarnia or Windsor and Port Huron and Detroit, could be very beneficial to help interdict these. I think those types of things would be exceedingly important.

The other thing—and I leave this to the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, or whoever—is that I have spoken with Ambassador Doer about this matter, and he has a very strong interest in it. To the extent that the Canadian government can continue to communicate the strength of the interest up here, I think that would be very valuable.

Those are the types of things I think would be very beneficial.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Before I saw this map, I wasn't really aware of the 19 pathways where they could enter the Great Lakes. I found that very enlightening.

Is there any possibility that if you disturb the route they're now taking, up the Mississippi, the most direct route, they will just divert? Will the carp do that?

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

That is my guess. Actually, this is part of what's happening with the intensive commercial fishing. You go to a certain location and essentially try to fish out the fish in that particular location, but then they'll go to another place where they find a food source and an appropriate habitat for reproducing. They then can establish themselves in another location. Now, whether that sends them up other tributaries or what, I'm not certain, but—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

One of the scientists who was here felt—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Ms. Davidson. You're out of time.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

I'm sorry.

I guess I'm done.

5:15 p.m.

Voices

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