Fisheries Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[Claire Dansereau]

We wouldn't be considering it if we thought there would be an impact. It's our sense that there are some fisheries that don't require that level of attention on a yearly basis. If it turns out that we're wrong...but it would be hard to imagine that we would be wrong on that. There are some fisheries that will continue to require yearly attention, and they will get that.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Also, before you switch over to David, why were you doing it annually in the first place, then?

[David Bevan, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We had a history of doing it annually. We've also had some bad experiences from doing it annually, in that there's noise built into science, and people have had a tendency in the past to want us to manage to the noise. So when you get a spike in an index of abundance, they say there's more fish there and they want to fish there. What we really need to do is to dampen that out and take a more cautious approach and look at and respond to the trends over time.

We saw what happened with the cod on the south coast of Newfoundland, where it went up and down, up and down, and the TAC went up and down, up and down, and we took too much risk because we responded to a high index reading and then cropped it down and then had to reduce the TAC.

So with long-lived species this allows us to have a more multi-year approach and to monitor indices, but not do a full evaluation of these species that are not going to change in one year in any dramatic way. So we will keep a tab on what's going on in that stock, but we aren't going to do a full evaluation and spend lots of money and come up with a number and then have to respond to it, when what we really need to do is to take a longer term outlook.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I can appreciate the cycles, whether for snow crab on the east coast, salmon on the west coast, halibut, or pretty much any species you pick. But the issue I'm hearing on the ground, especially on the west coast with salmon, is that they need more resources for fish counts and enumeration. They need more resources to get that information in order to provide better accuracy in terms of the returns. That information then informs the decisions with regard to allocation. Is that going to be impacted at all by this new management?

[David Bevan]

Not on salmon, as our forecast isn't accurate enough to use a full multi-year approach to salmon. We have to use in-season management.

[Claire Dansereau]

And it's not even yearly with salmon; it's pretty much daily during the summer.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For my three minutes, I'm going to follow up on two unrelated questions. First of all, to follow up on the chair's comments, we're not managers, but legislators. Is there any interest in an aquaculture act that would separate the management, or the goals and principles and so on, and how we do aquaculture from what is in our Fisheries Act? That's one question.

Secondly, and unrelated to that, I know you've done some work on grey seals and their impact on marine resources in recent months and years. Can you update us on where you are with that and any actions the department might recommend taking on those?

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the questions.

I'll let David answer the grey seals question, because that's a file he is managing.

On the question of an aquaculture act, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm an agnostic. I think we need to make sure, either within the Fisheries Act or a stand-alone act, that the issues of aquaculture are addressed. And until there are changes to the Fisheries Act or there is a stand-alone aquaculture act, we will do by policy and regulation what we think needs to be done.

We listen to others who suggest that an act is required, but at this point it's hard to say whether there should be new paragraphs within the Fisheries Act, or an aquaculture act itself.

On grey seals, I'll let David speak.

[David Bevan]

On grey seals, there's obviously been a clear debate. The fishermen are strongly of the view that grey seals are a large biomass that's feeding on fish and impacting on the stocks.

We have done a lot of work on the feeding habits of grey seals and their potential impact on cod. We brought together many experts from all points of view, not just those with the view that it's a done deal that there's a relationship. We brought over 50 people together to come to a scientific consensus, which was that in the southern gulf, in particular, grey seals are the most likely cause of high levels of mortality of large cod and are impeding the recovery of southern gulf cod. That is also the subject of a discussion by the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, which recommended to the minister that we have a targeted cull of grey seals to try to give the spawning stocks and the southern gulf cod an opportunity to rebound and to start getting the numbers so they can reach a critical mass and we can deal with the current high level of mortality. So that's a consideration for the minister at this point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Kamp.

Mr. Toone.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to go back to the rescue centre issue, more specifically to the linguistic aspect, if I may. We are anticipating the closure to take place in the spring. The jobs will be transferred to Halifax. I thought the minister said earlier that there will be a Level C language proficiency requirement for the rescue centre. In addition, there will be training for new workers in Halifax. They are going to be required to have Level C in their second language.

We understand that Level C actually corresponds to language proficiency at an administrative level. That might be good for a public servant, but it might not be enough for a crisis centre or a rescue centre.

We also understand that, in eastern Canada, the Acadian accent is sometimes really hard to understand. We are requiring Level C proficiency, so has the department done an assessment in a crisis or rescue centre? Is Level C really the proficiency level we want? Is it sufficient to meet the needs of our mariners in distress? Has the department investigated this to be sure that the training in Halifax will be sufficient to address the needs of our mariners in distress?

[Marc Grégoire]

Air traffic controllers across the country are considered bilingual and have a Level C; so do flight service specialists. Our communication specialists across the country, and especially in Quebec, have a Level C. That is the operational level. It is not just an administrative level. Level B would be an administrative level. At Level C, you can be quite efficient and you can function at a technical level in the second language.

But let me go back to what I was saying earlier in English. Through our selection process, we pre-selected 83 people who met all the criteria for the search and rescue coordinator position. Of those people, we zeroed in on about 20 candidates who claimed to meet the language requirement. I was then told that most of those people, if not all, were francophone: Acadians, Quebeckers, French-speaking Canadians from somewhere else. We are going to test their language skills in the coming weeks.

Of course, if we had to offer bilingual training to an anglophone, for example, to make them bilingual, it would be impossible for us to meet our April 2012 deadline. On average, most people need more time than that to acquire a second language.

We are keen on the French capacity. So we are trying to find people who are already able to work in French. But we still have to test them in their second language, which is English in most cases and in these particular cases. Once that is done, we are going to finish selecting the candidates. We want to hire 12 people: six for Halifax and six for Trenton, so that we can have all the bilingual positions filled in both places when the transition takes place.

But that’s not all. The training those people are going to receive is not second-language training. It is technical training with a series of courses that are going to be offered at the Canadian Coast Guard College in both languages to get them ready.

These are very important positions. We have to prepare the candidates to be search and rescue coordinators. We expect the training to last for several months, perhaps from November to January or so. It will be followed by on-the-job training so that we are going to be ready for the transition by the spring of 2012 for both Quebec City and St. John’s, when the search and rescue centres will be consolidating, as the minister said. That is the plan right now.

As I said earlier, we have also offered the employees in the sub-centres of St. John’s and Quebec the opportunity to be transferred to Halifax or St. John’s. They all have till October 15 to let us know whether they wish to be transferred or not. Of course, if they accept, they won’t require any training. They will be ready to go on the job the very day of the transition. We have those candidates in addition to the 20 or so people we are currently assessing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Monsieur Grégoire.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, just to put it on your radar screen, I'd like to mention that there's a major problem in the Charlottetown Harbour with a sewage issue. It's a $24-million issue. I don't want you to respond to it here, but please put it on your radar screen. Shellfish in that area are going through a pitiful time because they're shut off so much.

I would also like to make a small comment on the herring seiners and what will take place, understanding that the herring stocks off P.E.I., in Fisherman's Bank and these places, were rich stocks not too many years ago. I know that we have monitoring and that we analyze everything, but the herring is gone. Do you feel that the midshore seiners are going to be able to continue? If they are, the herring stocks will be gone. Could you give me just a short comment on that?

I would also like you to explain to me the rationalization program in the lobster fishery off Prince Edward Island. It's very important to make sure that continues. What is the plan? Will there be more rationalization in area 26A?

[Claire Dansereau]

On the issue of the seiners, as David said, it's a fishery that we monitor really carefully. As you know, there are the spring and the fall spawners. There are two different fish that are caught, and they're targeted at different sectors of the fishery.

As to what may have happened x number of years ago, it was under a different management regime. Now we are very carefully monitoring everything that's going on out there.

So we don't believe that what is happening with the seiners right now is having a negative impact on the other fishery. If we thought so, then we would obviously shut it down. That's my view. David can certainly add to the detail here.

As for your last question, it was not in fact a rationalization program; that's not how it was developed. It was a program to help with the long-term sustainability of the lobster fishery. It was a five-year program and, at this point, there is no plan to go further.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

There are no dollars being allocated for—whatever term you want to use—the survival of the stock.

I understood, though, that a second round was to take place.

[Claire Dansereau]

The full program was a five-year program. There have been three calls for proposals, if that's what you want call them. That was the plan and that was how we put it together through that tough year which the lobster fishery went through three years ago, as we all remember. But it was only designed to be a five-year program.

It doesn't mean that we're not concerned about the long-term sustainability of lobster; it's just that this program does not carry on. The rest of the work that we do does carry on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'm cut off.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

You're cut off.

Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I just have some short comments here.

In terms of aquaculture, I'm starting to learn a bit about it. I think the two greatest benefits of aquaculture, the way it is, is that it reduces pressure on the wild stocks and the fact there's no bycatch. I would recommend that the department use those two points in its communications on aquaculture because those, to me, are very significant benefits that are underappreciated.

I'll echo Fin Donnelly's comments and say that I'd like to see a lot more monitoring of fish stocks, not only on the coasts but also across the country. For example, I look at the Freshwater Institute in Manitoba. I think much of what they do could be reprofiled to focus on fish. There's a lot of generalized environmental research being done there that is interesting, but Manitobans and many people across the country are really interested in the health of fish stocks. So I'd ask you to think about that.

My last point is a bit of good news. We're all prone around this table to come at you with bad news. But on the good news front, I had the pleasure of spending a few days fishing the Miramichi this fall with a representative from the Atlantic Salmon Federation. We didn't catch too many Atlantic salmon, but we talked about them anyway, and I gather that across much of Atlantic Canada the rebound of the Atlantic salmon stocks is nothing short of remarkable. And I was very interested to hear about the relationship your department has with the Atlantic Salmon Federation and the collaborative effort and research being done.

In terms of the Atlantic salmon in particular, can you talk about what you've done over the last decade that has contributed to the rebound in the stocks over much of Atlantic Canada? It's truly a conservation success story, and I think you should start to take some credit for it.

[Claire Dansereau]

I'm not sure I'd want to take credit for something like that, which is so driven by nature rather than by the actions we could take.

I can say that we've made great strides and have put a lot of effort into ensuring that we have a good working relationship with the Atlantic Salmon Federation—and I include myself there—because we think they have a lot to contribute. By working together and pooling resources, we can in fact advance some of the work that needs to be done for the Atlantic salmon.

Sadly, though, I don't think we can take credit for all of that.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Well, I think you can to a certain extent, because I gather that the commercial fishery has been really reduced, if not eliminated.

Could you just elaborate on the state of negotiations with Greenland? I know they're agitating to open up that offshore fishery for Atlantic salmon again. That, I think, is a real Achilles heel for the Atlantic salmon.

But in terms of managing the commercial fishery and really reducing it, I think you can take some credit for that.