Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ice.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Currently, as part of your day-to-day duties, are there any interactions with aboriginal communities?
I'm thinking among others of the Innu, who do not necessarily need boats, since they can move on the ice. In many cases, the hunt is not organized; it is practised according to an age-old model.
5 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We generally have more contact with people who hunt for recreational purposes rather than for commercial purposes. People travel and we have contact with them.
These are not the types of hunters observers want to meet. What observers want to see is the bulk of the commercial hunt because it is garish; there are a lot of people and a lot of blood at the same time on the ice.
In my experience, other than the average person who wants to see what is happening, shore-based hunters do not see much of sea hunt observers. However, they must respect the same rules. As far as I know, we have never had any problems with the communities.
Where we have to intervene is more with organized groups who want to observe the hunt, which includes both those who apply for licence and those who arrive on site without one.
June 11th, 2014 / 5 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague, Mr. Clarke.
How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?
5 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you again to the witnesses for being here.
I have never experienced the seal hunt and would therefore like to know more about the licencing system. How does one apply for a licence? Who is responsible for issuing these licences?
5:05 p.m.
Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The issuance of licences is established under paragraph 4 of the Marine Mammal Regulations. The licence itself shows whether it is for sealing purposes or for observation purposes. This section also sets out the costs of the licences.
In the case of the seal hunt, licences are issued for nuisance seal, seal fishery observation, marine mammal transportation, collector vessel, personal use sealing and commercial use sealing.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you.
If I understood correctly, there is currently no
an active grey seal fishery. Is that correct?
5:05 p.m.
Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It has existed in the past in the Magdalen Islands, at a place called Corps-Mort. Grey seal can be hunted like other seals. Licences can therefore also be valid for grey seal hunting.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Would the regulations we're talking about apply in exactly the same way to a grey seal fishery?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
In other words, the regulations aren't specific to the type of seal.
5:05 p.m.
Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Close times are set out in the schedule to the Marine Mammal Regulations, which also includes a list of seals species. From there, a mechanism set out in the Fisheries Act kicks in. Under the general fishery regulations, regional directors-general may, by order, vary close times and fishing quotas. That is how the seal hunt is managed.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
If I might borrow the term, I'm a little bit on thin ice when I talk about seal hunts, but if I understand correctly, the grey seal hunt would be more on land than on the ice floes. Would the regulations, therefore, be applied in a different way in practice?
5:05 p.m.
Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I believe you are referring to Hay Island in Nova Scotia, where sealing has occurred in the past. It is not my region and I do not really know whether sealing still takes place there. There may be licencing conditions that are specific to that hunt. The provisions of the regulations are quite long and also apply to the grey seal hunt.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Randy Jenkins Director, National Fisheries Intelligence Service, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Thank you.
If I can just expand on that, probably the largest grey seal hunt we've had that's been organized in recent years occurred on Hay Island off Cape Breton. It's a small rock, for all intents and purposes. It's a nature reserve, but sealers have permission to go and harvest so many animals there. But the observation permits, if that's what you're asking, work in exactly the same way: persons have to apply to the department to be licensed to go on the island.
Because it's such a small island and we have only a small number of sealers there, if more than one or two individuals want to go, we restrict the groups to four persons at a time. The others can stay off in the boat, but they would rotate on the island to do the actual watching, just to better manage the peaceful and orderly harvest of the fishery. There are only so many sealers allowed on the island and so many observers allowed on the island, but the conditions are identical whether it is harp seal or grey seal. They are the same conditions.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
I'd love to ask some questions about the safety of the people in uniform, like yourselves, and I think the better person to ask them would be someone who has worn a uniform, a uniform of which we are all very proud, and that is the uniform of the RCMP—Mr. Clarke.
5:05 p.m.
Rob Clarke Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks, guys, for coming in today.
I have a couple of questions. This is about officer safety, too, is it not?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Absolutely it is. I think part of this is that we wouldn't want to exaggerate the point at all. We're not trying to come forward to suggest that there are all kinds of problems and a litany of threats and so on, but absolutely, this is certainly a big feature in the officer safety context.
5:10 p.m.
Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC
Yes. I came from a detachment where we had something tragic happen.
On the 10-metre rule, when I was going through training, we were trained that within that range if a person holding a knife or any type of weapon comes at you and you're carrying a sidearm, number one, your safety is going to be compromised and, two, the individuals you're trying to protect are also compromised.
But what I see in the pictures here is a lot of vessels, probably within more than a 10-metre range. Now, vessels can be used as weapons, to put it bluntly, and have been used as weapons. When you're on a vessel or on an ice floe, how do you guys feel when things escalate? Do you feel that your safety is in jeopardy? Have there been instances where officers have come close to putting their lives in jeopardy? Or have you experienced any losses?
5:10 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Some clarification is needed.
The pictures submitted today are from cases involving the Farley Mowat.. These people did not have observer permits and were not even supposed to be within 10 metres of these places. There is a difference here. If you wish, we can speak to these photos more later on.
Let us talk about the people who have the permits allowing them to get within 10 metres of the hunt. Usually, we meet all of these people and experience has shown us that they are not all the same and they do not all have the same goals. There can be some confrontations between hunters and people with observer permits within 10 metres. Actually, this prevents the hunters from doing their job. They cannot work as well when they have a camera filming them 10 metres overhead or next to them, compared with when they are alone on the ice.
However, as fishery officers, we face the same danger whether we are aboard a crab or other fishing boat because there are many weapons on the boat. All fishers have knives and they often also have firearms on board. In addition, we often see fishers who are under the influence of drugs. And I am not talking only about seal fishers. The safety of peace officers must be ensured for any one of their duties. The most basic duties officers carry out during their day can probably also be the most dangerous.
As for the ten-metre distance, people have to undergo safety checks before being issued a licence. They must respect the strictest rules when they are on site. This does not eliminate the potential for an altercation with an officer or a fisher. Also, the hunters have weapons in their hands. There is a distinction between monitoring or a protest observation and observation that is more geared towards documenting than the hunt. Those with licences may be against the hunt but that does not necessarily mean that they will take radical action against the hunters.
5:10 p.m.
Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC
I'm looking at the Farley Mowat boat here.
You talked about having licences and, from a law enforcement standpoint, individuals carrying side arms, or firearms. But I also look at the observers on their ships, one with a harpoon gun on the front of the bow. That's on slide number seven.
Have any of the fishers ever been threatened or felt threatened by one of those weapons, or have they ever been pointed at the fishers? This can escalate and things can happen within a millisecond of escalating, from just individuals out harvesting, to the point where, I hate to say it, shots are fired.
5:10 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
On picture 7—I believe this is the one you are referring to—what you see is not a harpoon but rather a water cannon. The effect, however, is exactly the same. In the series of photos you see, the Farley Mowat is going directly for the fishing vessel from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and is just about to deploy the water cannon on the fishers.
However, there are some things even more dangerous than water cannons. You will see a series of pictures of small boats. In picture 10, at the very left, for example, to the left of the yellow arrow, you can see the Farley Mowat. A few seconds before that, the fishers were on the ice, while the boat was getting closer. That is clearly within the half-mile. It is really quite close. I was onboard the patrol boat that day and we played cat and mouse all afternoon to avoid taking damage from that boat. We then stopped the boat. Of course, all the rules, agreements and approvals from senior management gave us the authority to end this violation. The ship was therefore stopped. I was the first to board the Farley Mowat to arrest the crew. They were led aboard our ship, that is the icebreaker. The Farley Mowat was towed to the wharf in Sydney. Charges were laid in the following days. The fishers' lives were indeed in danger that time.
As you can see on the picture, there are two fishing vessels, a red one and a blue one, which are the same size, about 45 feet. The people on these boats said that they were truly scared that day. Some told us that the Farley Mowat had brushed their stabilizer. Stabilizers are those long arms that are deployed on each side of a ship to stabilize it. The Farley Mowat had missed the stabilizer by a few centimetres. These people were scared. They were truly happy to have us there that day to put an end to that violation and allow them to see to their business and to earn a living.
