Evidence of meeting #30 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mile.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dion Dakins  Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call the meeting to order.

I'd like to thank Mr. Dakins and Mr. Thompson for joining us here today. As you're well aware, we're discussing Bill C-555.

Mr. Dakins, we're certainly very anxious to hear your presentation this morning.

I'm sure the clerk has already informed you that we generally allow about 10 minutes for presentations, which are followed by questions and answers. If I cut you off at any time through the question and answer period, please forgive me. Members are constrained by certain time limits and in the interest of fairness, we try to keep as close to those timeframes as possible.

Whenever you're ready, Mr. Dakins, please proceed.

8:50 a.m.

Dion Dakins Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First I want to thank the committee for this opportunity to appear before you to address Bill C-555. I am here representing the Seals and Sealing Network, which is a national non-profit organization promoting sustainable and wise use principles.

The network is made up of sealer associations, Inuit, processors, manufacturers and traders, veterinarians, provincial and territorial governments, among others.

Rather than just rely on my representation, I'd like to draw attention to the testimonials that are in the backgrounder, which we will leave behind. Those are testimonials by sealers related to interference they have experienced due to the observation regime we currently have.

The purpose of our presentation today is to provide you with our perspective on Bill C-555, and our recommendations for achieving the objectives that both the sealing sector and the government share. These shared objectives centre around worker health and safety, animal welfare, validation and enforcement to demonstrate the integrity of the industry, continuous improvement in management practices based on best science and experience. Bill C-555, which we support in principle, also provides the opportunity to revisit the rules and regulations related to Canadian seal hunt observers.

In its current form the bill proposes a change to the marine mammal regulations that would alter the minimum distance from one-half nautical mile to one nautical mile for unlicensed observers. The Seals and Sealing Network strongly believes that Bill C-555 is not addressing the real problem. It is important for the committee to know that unlicensed observers are not the primary concern of the sector. Difficulties lie with the licensed observers. Our preferred recommendation is to change the regulations to apply to all observers.

We have provided you with a fuller description of our proposals, but I will describe them briefly in my presentation today. We have three recommendations.

Recommendation one is to establish a mechanism for developing and deploying a verified assurance program for the east coast Canadian seal hunt. This assurance program is to be conducted by objective third party qualified experts and to have such a program recognized under the marine mammal regulations.

Recommendation two is to eliminate the licensed observer category under proposed subsection 33(1) and apply the one nautical mile buffer zone to all observers unless otherwise directed by the minister, or failing that, extend the observation for licensed observers to a minimum of 500 metres, and that observers meet the same requirement as seal hunters and be required to carry an electronic locator, GPS, or DFO enforcement officer or recognized at-sea observer for the purpose of distance and activity enforcement.

Recommendation three is to update the regulation to clearly state that it applies to both a person fishing for seals as well as sealing vessels travelling to and from and at the seal harvest site, and that it apply to marine vessels and aircraft, including drones.

I would like to briefly explain each recommendation. I ask that you refer to the discussion paper for a complete description.

On recommendation one, a verified assurance program, the sealing sector has become highly regulated and is conducted in a responsible manner by sealers who are trained to operate under the highest standards of humane harvest and handling. The next step is to demonstrate that this high level of hunting is conducted by providing objective and fact-based data rather than the distorted misinformation campaigns of anti-seal hunt protesters.

The sealing community believes there is both a need and a demand to create a third party assurance program for sealing. This would be similar to programs in other animal use sectors. It would revolve around a third party audit and validation system performed by qualified independent validators. A transparent assurance program would satisfy the need for public accountability and would help to offset one-sided reporting by biased observers such as anti-sealing groups that do not prescribe to the basic principles of sustainable use of wildlife.

Such a program would also support regulatory responsibility, that the best practices are being followed by the sealing sector, and where necessary that corrective measures are identified and implemented. It would also provide quantifiable data and would identify needs and opportunities within the sealing sector.

It would provide market assurances for buyers of our seal products. The need for independent evaluation was identified by the European Food Safety Authority in its 2007 report to the Scientific Panel on Animal Health and Welfare related to the Canadian seal hunt. Such an assurance program would be tied to other ongoing activities by the sector, such as training and education, codes of practice, and best management practices.

Recommendation two is to change the observer licence.

Option A: The Seals and Sealing Network strongly believes that Bill C-555 is not addressing the real problem. The concerns revolve around the violations by observers under their licence. Such violations create risks to human safety, animal welfare, and the lawful right to conduct business unfettered. The sealing community submits that with the development of a verified assurance program, the public's interest can be realized and would eliminate the justification for close proximity observation. Sealers report that close proximity allowed under the licensed observer permit can interfere with their ability to conduct their work, including the need to dispatch animals as quickly and humanely as possible. It also poses a safety risk to sealers, enforcement personnel, and the observers themselves.

Furthermore, with today's advanced photographic and satellite capabilities, there is no longer a need for close proximity observations. Applying the proposed amendment to one nautical mile for all observers would still afford observers the ability to conduct their surveillance without impeding on the sealers' workplace.

Option B: Should licensed observers' permits be maintained, then the sealing community believes that the current regulated observation distance must be extended. The current distance of 10 metres, only 32 feet, does not provide adequate safety or security for sealers, observers, or enforcement officers.

In his testimony to the committee on June 11, 2014, Jean-François Sylvestre, chief of conservation and protection with DFO, confirmed that the current 10-metre observation limit is insufficient. He said:

There can be some confrontations between hunters and people with observer permits within 10 metres.

Actually, this prevents the hunters from doing their job. They cannot work as well when they have a camera filming them 10 metres ahead or next to them compared with when they are alone on the ice. This is supported by Yves Richard, chief of regulations for Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in his testimony to this committee. He said:

Having someone filming them with a camera can lead to additional stress for hunters.

Our own research at the Seals and Sealing Network has also found that from a safety aspect, the 10-metre limit is arbitrary and is inconsistent with limits set for other forms of hunting involving firearms. A cross-country analysis of municipal firearms discharge laws showed that 10 metres is insufficient for public safety when a firearm is used on stable land and even more so in an unstable sea and ice environment

For enforcement purposes, we also ask that these observers be required to be equipped with an electronic locator, GPS, as is required for the licensed hunters, in order for enforcement personnel to monitor their movements and locations.

Recommendation three is to clarify the regulations.

For better clarity, extending the observation distance one nautical mile should also state in regulations to apply to both a person fishing for seals as well as sealing vessels travelling to and from and at the seal harvest site. The extended observation distance should also be clearly stated in the regulation to apply to marine vessels, aircraft, and drones.

As I mentioned, there is a detailed brief on our recommendations and supporting evidence for the committee to consider.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for considering our recommendations. I would be happy to answer any questions.

For further information we do have a website: www.sealsandsealing.net.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Dakins. I appreciate your presentation.

We're going to go into questions at this point in time. It's a 10-minute round.

We'll start off with Mr. Cleary.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Dakins and Mr. Thompson, for the presentation.

My first question is pretty much a soft lob. Before I get into some deeper questions about your recommendations, I'm looking for an overview on the harp seal population off Newfoundland's northeast coast, off Labrador, and the grey seal in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I'd like an overview of the health of the populations and the impact on stocks. Also, I'm interested in the impact on stocks off the northeast coast of the U.S. I know they have a complete cod stock collapse down there. Perhaps you could comment on whether seals have had an impact on those stocks as well.

8:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

I think it's clear that the populations have expanded—exploded, nearly—since the early 1980s when there was a conservation concern related to seals and seal populations. In the United States right now for the grey seal, the word out of the fishing sector in the United States is that the Canadian seals are coming down and eating the American fish. They are also providing an additional challenge to the recreational fishing sector, to the salmonid species, striped bass, and others, where conservation of those stocks now is clear. Striped bass is up for review. Whether or not it will be listed as a threatened species has yet to be decided.

The cod fishery has been closed in the Gulf of Maine, so it is believed by both American and Canadian counterparts that the grey seal is playing a significant role in this reduction of fisheries viability. The same is being seen on the east coast of Canada, where predation on shrimp, crab, cod, haddock, hake, and other groundfish species is more than evident.

We prefer to look at total biometric removals by grey seals or harp seals, rather than individuals, species by species, because we think that's where the answer will lie: in maintaining a complete balance in the ecosystem rather than in looking simply at the interactions of one species with another.

I don't know if I've missed anything in my response. Greg?

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

To summarize then, from your perspective the seals are continuing to have a massive impact on fish stocks, on shellfish stocks, and the populations are unchecked. They're continuing to grow. Does that pretty much summarize it?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

That would be the overall feeling of the industry, the sector, and it's also supported by some science from DFO, where we think we can do more work to help quantify and qualify the actual impacts.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Do you have the total numbers for harp seal versus grey seal populations? Can you give us an estimate?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

For the harp seal, it's currently estimated to be 7.4 million. Grey seals are currently estimated to be in excess of 500,000. Comparatively, in 1980 the harp seal population estimate was about two million, and for the grey seal it was at about 30,000.

The interesting thing is that within the seal populations themselves we are seeing stress indicators. Adult animals were carrying 20 kilos less fat in the month of February, as studied by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which shows that their health is deteriorating. Additionally, on average, harp seals are having their first pup 1.7 years later than they were when the population was under five million.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Dakins, can you give us a breakdown on the number of hunters too?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

On the books there were about 13,000 licensed hunters last year. We expect that there will be a correction in the figure, because this year everybody who wants to renew their fishing licence has to have participated in the humane harvesting and handling training courses that are being offered. We expect that this year there will be about 5,000 licensed sealers. How many will be active is unsure. It depends on market capabilities.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

One of the words you used piqued my interest, and that was “drones”. More and more in the news business, for example, in journalism, you're seeing drones used for everything from covering fires to whatever. Are you concerned that this bill may not cover drones and that where they're used more and more, they may be used by anti-sealing groups, say, to take pictures of the harvest?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

The way we see it, it's an opportunity to have the regulations be robust and reflect future potential action by any group, or even for our own monitoring. It's clear that the ice floes and the waters are actually the workplace of our sealers, and within Canadian law, people are entitled to a safe and healthy workplace. We see drones or other mechanisms of observing the hunt as potentially disruptive and causing unnecessary stress in the hunters.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I haven't had an opportunity to read the testimonials from the sealers at the back. I was somewhat surprised—I won't say shocked—by how you wanted your recommendation to cover not just unofficial observers, but official observers as well. In your own words, can you explain that? Can you elaborate on that?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

Ten metres is the current restricted distance that a licensed observer can approach sealing activity. That distance is safe neither for the hunters nor for the observers themselves, or for the enforcement staff that are responsible to regulate.

Recently there was a story posted online about a hunter in Sweden who was talking about the difficulties they have in achieving their harvest levels because two nautical miles are required. They cannot discharge their firearms at a seal inside two nautical miles of a dwelling or another person doing either fishing activity or sealing activity.

We feel that two nautical miles is prohibitive and not necessarily required, but we feel that expanding the distance from 10 metres to 500 metres for all observers is more than adequate for safety. We feel that it would also still afford ample opportunity for observers to collect any video evidence they may require. The only people where we would see an exception being allowed closer than that would be an approved veterinary study that would be allowed to participate on sealing vessels.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Dakins, what we're seeing off the northeast coast of Newfoundland right now is a decline in shellfish stocks, shrimp, for example. We're seeing an increase in groundfish stocks, cod, for example. Would you say the harp seal population is having an impact on the rise or fall of either of those stocks?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

Most definitely.

9 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Could you elaborate?

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

This is from people who have the local knowledge and a historical context to understand the interactions of seals and fish. We need more science.

Additionally, there are problems now in the north with the ringed seal. The harp seal is a far more aggressive and more competitive seal. They are now showing up in the Davis Strait and in the communities in the north in higher numbers than they ever have before. In fact, they're displacing ringed seals from their breathing holes. Those are the stories we're hearing from the elders and the people on the land.

The interaction of not only the seals with the fish but also the seals with other seal species is quite alarming at this point, from the observations of the people who actually hunt and who live on the land.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

The stories you're telling are anecdotal. People always push for the hard and fast science. Is the science there to back it up? Is the science being carried out?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

There is not enough science being carried out right now. The industry is very much in favour of further veterinarian inspection of the hunt, validation, and a lot of my representation was built on having third party validation. It has been required by international markets. It is required in other commodities. It's something we'd like to see.

We'd also like to see a further investigation around ecosystem-based management approaches to quantify and qualify the interactions between these populations of seals, which we have never seen at such high levels, and our commercial fish stocks, which we have never seen at such low levels.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

How immediate is the problem? I know that a few years ago the Senate came out with a report recommending a cull of grey seals in the gulf. What about harp seals? How immediately should this be addressed?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

It's critical that we do this as soon as possible.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

“Do this”; can you elaborate on that? Are you talking about a cull?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Carino Processing Ltd.

Dion Dakins

Well, obviously the recommendation of the Senate standing committee was to cull 70,000 grey seals four years ago. Without having the benefit of further science, I'm sure that number of 70,000 is now outdated and needs to be much higher as the population has grown. I think we need to immediately shift our focus on to reviving markets. Part of that is having adequate regulations around how the hunt is observed.

Quite frankly, it's very hard to comprehend even a good seal kill when the person has no attachment with doing it. I think we need to stop erroneous observation and messaging around the seal hunt, get down to third party validation, recover our markets, and start to achieve our quotas annually.