Evidence of meeting #119 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Todd Russell  President, NunatuKavut Community Council
Alex Patterson  Director, Community Services and Tourism, Municipality of Wawa
Yvonne Jones  Labrador, Lib.
Colin Fraser  West Nova, Lib.
Tim Wentzell  Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Frank Mauro  Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

11:55 a.m.

Labrador, Lib.

Yvonne Jones

Actually, I didn't get to ask Mr. Patterson a question I was wondering about.

I know that you represent a municipality, and I also know that many of the small craft harbours are in very active municipalities that do not always have the financial resources to do the things they want to do. The other thing I realize, coming from an area with many rural communities, is that the commercial fishing industry is really a cultural tourism attraction. Most people who come to my community go to the fish plant. They want to tour the fish plant facilities. They want to see a fishing boat. They want to see people as they are processing the product.

What would be your recommendation to the government in terms of how we tie those industry sectors, those resource sectors, together? How can municipalities play a different role in what's happening right now with small craft harbours and how our programs are rolling out?

11:55 a.m.

Director, Community Services and Tourism, Municipality of Wawa

Alex Patterson

I think the key is, again, partnerships and diversification. It would be very narrow-minded to think that these harbours would be just commercial or just for recreation or just for tourism, because they can be a combination of several efforts. Our recommendation would be that when you're assessing these small craft harbours and when you're divvying up funding.... In our case, in particular, our local first nation and our municipality are heavily involved, and we partner with each other on a lot of things and try to make sure that we both benefit from whatever happens.

We have a federal historic site literally just across the river from us. It's very important, we feel, that when these harbours are looked at, they're looked at holistically. You can say, yes, this may be just for commercial fisheries, but there could be some tourism and some recreation benefits that keep these northern communities alive.

11:55 a.m.

Labrador, Lib.

Yvonne Jones

Go ahead, Ken.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I have one question, and it's to Mr. Russell and Mr. Coombs. I want it to be very clear, on the record, that this is coming from someone from the west coast.

Your map really illustrates that there are a large number of small craft harbours in Newfoundland and very few in Labrador. If everyone is competing, basically, for funding to provide maintenance, upkeep, a state of good repair and improvement, do you think it's time to look at maybe rationalizing the number of small craft harbours in Newfoundland so that there is more funding for the places that are underserved? This came from the west coast, I have to say.

11:55 a.m.

President, NunatuKavut Community Council

Todd Russell

The wisdom of Solomon is required. There's no doubt about that.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I think he refused to answer.

11:55 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:55 a.m.

President, NunatuKavut Community Council

Todd Russell

Investments should be made where investments are required.

I have to say that there has often been a lag in terms of investments in northern and indigenous communities, and that is one of the reasons I'm saying that the committee should recommend to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that when it's making investment decisions, it should look through a northern and indigenous lens and look at small craft harbour investments not just in a silo but as part of an overall fisheries development package or, and I don't like this particular word, strategy. If you have a fisheries development strategy in northern and indigenous areas, then small craft harbours should be part of that and not see themselves in isolation, so that the proper investments are made where they're required and needed.

Noon

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

That concludes our first hour. I want to say a special thank you to our witnesses, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Russell and Mr. Coombs. Your input, I'm sure, will be much appreciated and will come forward in some form in the report when we get to actually writing the report itself. If there's anything you think needs to be added, you can certainly make a written submission before the deadline, and we'll include it as well.

Thank you.

Noon

President, NunatuKavut Community Council

Todd Russell

Mr. Chair, in conclusion, we commend the presentation to your analysts and the clerk to form part of the record, and we appreciate the opportunity to be here to speak from our perspective on small craft harbours. Nakurmiik. Thank you.

Noon

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

We'll suspend for a moment while we change over to our next session with guests.

Noon

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

If I can get everybody's attention, we'll get started again.

In our next hour, we have two guests appearing by video conference. From the national harbour authority advisory committee, we have Mr. Tim Wentzell, committee representative; and from the Pacific regional harbour authority advisory committee, we have Mr. Frank Mauro, who is a representative of that committee.

Gentlemen, when you're ready, you have seven minutes or less for your presentation.

Mr. Wentzell, you can go first.

Noon

Tim Wentzell Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Good afternoon. First I would like to thank Mr. Chairman and the honourable members for giving me the opportunity to speak here today. I am presenting on behalf of fellow committee member Osborne Burke, who is unavailable to attend today.

My name is Tim Wentzell. I am a commercial fisherman from the south shore of Nova Scotia. I've been president of my harbour authority for 25 years. I have also been an elected member of the Maritimes and gulf harbour authority advisory committee for 12 years, and a member of the national harbour authority advisory committee for seven years.

My family has fished for generations, and I currently fish from the same wharf in the same community as my father and grandfather did. The future of wharves in coastal Canada is a topic that is very important to me, very close to my heart. I take pride in volunteering and helping to manage the ongoing issues.

I will now make mention of the document we submitted to the committee for review.

The national harbour authority advisory committee is a national advisory group that provides advice to small craft harbours. Fifteen volunteer representatives make up the group from all five DFO regions in Canada. Meetings are once a year in person and ongoing conferences calls when needed. We represent 565 harbour authorities across the country with a network of 5,000 volunteers.

The harbour authority model is very successful, largely due to the hard work of the volunteers in these communities. As successful as the program has been, we do have our challenges. One of them is that our structures are aging and getting older. My particular wharf was built in 1948, so it was post-war. It's outlived its lifespan. We're still using it. It's still functional, but it's getting tired. There are many facilities like that around the country in the same state.

Overcrowding at different harbours is another one of our concerns, because a lot of these wharves, like I said, were built post-war and they were designed for the fishing fleet of the day. The fishing fleet nowadays is considerably larger. The vessels are a lot larger and a lot wider. The current vessel compared to that from that time period back in the 1950s to now, fishing the same licence, would take up three times the area inside the harbour basin.

The growing aquaculture industry is also putting an amount of strain on the small craft harbours program.

Climate change is another issue. With storms increasing and water temperature rising, the frequency of storms in coastal areas and the impact they have on the infrastructure is quite noticeable. Any new structure and any existing repairs have to be built higher because of rising water levels, and that is another increased cost.

The increased cost around regularly scheduled maintenance dredging is another one of our concerns. Currently, $8.6 million is spent on maintenance dredging, which is far less than what is required. The small craft harbours program estimates that $21 million per year would be a more sufficient fund to do the maintenance dredging.

All of these add up to one big safety concern.

The next thing is the A-base and B-base funding for small craft harbours. A-base funding has remained relatively stable since 2007-08. Small craft harbours received a permanent A-base increase in 2007-08 of $20 million with B-base funding under 13 different programs since 2000-01. The program needed B-base funding to carry on the ongoing operations. Since 2007, small craft harbours' purchasing power has been greatly diminished by regulatory inflationary pressures. Without an A-base increase, the program will require future infusions of B-base funds to remain sustainable.

Regarding divestitures, because small craft harbours' mandate is to support a core group of commercial fishing harbours, the program can't sustain all the harbours. Some of the non-core harbours have been divested. Eleven hundred non-core harbours have been divested, but 330 still remain in inventory. Small craft harbours do not have dedicated funding for these sites. Without dedicated funding for divestiture, there is pressure put on the core harbours and the small craft harbours program. Continued deterioration leads to increased liabilities, etc.

The small craft harbours program is there to meet the principal and evolving needs of the commercial fishery. The program supports a wide range of successful harbour authorities in coastal communities across the country, with a network of safe, accessible harbours in good working condition. Investments at small craft harbours support economic growth in the fishing industry and the surrounding communities.

If there are any further things you want to get into, you can refer to the brief we submitted. A lot more detailed information is there.

Thank you for giving me time to express our concerns.

12:10 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. Wentzell.

We'll now go to Mr. Mauro, for seven minutes or less, please.

12:10 p.m.

Frank Mauro Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Chairman and committee, thank you for inviting me.

I'm a member of the Pacific regional harbour authority advisory committee. I've been the local, elected rural area representative. I'm not a fisherman, but I've served on the harbour authority since 2007 and on PRHAAC since 2010.

As a bit of background on the Pacific region, the 105 small craft harbours in B.C. are managed by 54 harbour authorities. We're obviously a member of the NHAAC hub. In B.C., there are more than 500 volunteers involved with the harbour authority program. It provides 200 to 300 ongoing permanent jobs and temporary jobs. Many of them are in small communities and they're absolutely necessary.

In B.C., our harbours serve the most diverse client group anywhere in the national program, including 80% of the commercial fleet, aquaculture, recreational fishing charters, first nations and tourism, and they're at the centre of many communities.

In terms of significant economic benefits, the Gislason report of 2015 indicated that every dollar spent on small craft harbours in the B.C. region returned $52 in economic benefits. More recently, the B.C. wild and farmed seafood production reports for 2016 gave a total landed value of $1.17 billion and a wholesale value of $1.72 billion. It's made up of a commercial fishery of $840 million and aquaculture of $881 million. This was up 23% over 2015. Obviously that $52 return for every dollar has increased.

They provide year-round operations in many of the remote communities, and a very strong environmental focus. In many cases, the harbour authorities are the first responders and suppliers of local knowledge for all events.

As just a bit about infrastructure and budgets, obviously my predecessor speaker here defined virtually everything, but the Pacific region infrastructure replacement value is $291 million. We have carrying costs of $31 million and the annual A-base budget is around $10 million.

The federal infusion of funds in initiatives one and two and the 2018 budget recently are much appreciated. It has helped us greatly in allowing catch-up on aging and overdue infrastructure maintenance and repairs.

There are challenges with a B-base budget. They're greatly appreciated funds and obviously much needed. Basically, we have a lot of things to consider. Consultations need to be completed with first nations, with short time frames. Stress is placed on small craft harbours, their staff and the volunteers on harbour authorities to complete all the work in the accelerated times. Also, this type of funding program puts continuous stress on harbour authorities to have a suite of shovel-ready projects with completed business cases and at least preliminary engineering, but sometimes even more detailed engineering. This stress is both due to the time effort required and the financial load on harbour authorities with funds that could be used for operations.

I want to stress that we want the fund to continue, but perhaps there's a better way of setting up the programs. A longer heads-up that these things are coming certainly would help. I understand that current funding levels are insufficient to support the amount of infrastructure as mentioned. We work on divestiture, but it must be balanced with the needs of the fishing industry. Some of the conversations are difficult to have.

The biggest concern we have here is dredging. Dredging has become more and more challenging. We're faced with the fact that it's absolutely necessary for some of our harbours, a lot of major harbours, including our largest harbour in Steveston.

Disposal of the dredge material has been the key issue, and we understand it's more difficult environmentally. We want to protect the environment. We all live in coastal communities and place great value on protecting the natural environment and these species, but we need to find a balance, perhaps by designating some disposal sites and doing an initial—thorough—environmental assessment. Thereafter, we would do a more streamlined assessment for the same locations so as to retain their inherent value and not repeat the work already done.

In B.C., first nations reconciliation is a big thing. Most first nations in B.C. don't have treaties, and there are 200 first nations. Significant efforts are made. The Harbour Authority Association of B.C. has been going out and visiting the first nations that are considering becoming harbour authorities and has provided mentoring sessions on what's involved. This has been valuable. I see that DFO has supported this. Right now, there are two first nations with the harbour authority association, and six first nations are currently in discussions. We see this as very positive. I could tell you about personal experiences but I'm going to run out of time.

I want to summarize the asks that are inherent in what I have proposed. First, obviously, is help in establishing a dredging material disposal system. It's absolutely critical here.

We want help with funding program process design to minimize the load on harbour authorities for achieving shovel-ready project status before applications can be considered, and we want the time frames relaxed.

We want help in maintaining consistency in the relationship with volunteer harbour authorities. They contribute much, and for them, the relationship is everything. We really depend on these volunteers to provide the services to the community.

We want help with increasing understanding—amongst this committee and others—that many of the harbours provide services to a fishing community that extends far beyond those fishers who moor at our harbours. It provides all services, including loading and unloading and stopovers with sporadic openings. They're absolutely critical, and they're not all the moorage customers.

Thank you very much for listening. I'll take any questions.

12:15 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. Mauro.

We'll go now to the questioning. First, on the government side, we have Mr. Hardie for seven minutes or less, please.

November 8th, 2018 / 12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you both for being with us.

Capacity is an issue that comes up in a lot of different places. I sit on the transportation, infrastructure and communities committee, as does my colleague Mr. Rogers, and we quite often hear that smaller municipalities also have challenges in matching the funding, getting projects shovel-ready, etc. They just don't have the in-house talent to do some of this stuff, and it must be even more difficult when you're dealing with a volunteer crew drawn from interested people in the community.

I know that the federal government did provide funding to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to assist small municipalities in building their capacity. Is there an organization or a body somewhere that could perhaps assist in building that capacity in your network? Some funding to do that kind of work would be well used.

Mr. Wentzell, do you want to comment on that?

12:15 p.m.

Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Tim Wentzell

With respect to the east coast, I'm not sure of that at this moment. I can get back to you. It's not on the tip of my tongue if there is another agency that would do that. At the national meetings over the years, I think I've heard my colleague from the west say there are some contacts out there—or are there not?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Mauro.

12:15 p.m.

Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Frank Mauro

There are a couple of ways of achieving this, but I think the funds need to be targeted specifically. We certainly wouldn't want these funds to go into a pool of funds that are available for all kinds of projects. We want them directed to small craft harbours.

The Harbour Authority Association of B.C. is a very vibrant community. We hold a conference. DFO actually does provide funding to assist with the annual conference. They have annual zone meetings. The whole area is set up in zones. They certainly could administer the—

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Sorry, sir, I would ask for a fairly short answer because I do have other questions. Basically, there's no FCM equivalent that would be a focal point for building capacity amongst your groups.

12:20 p.m.

Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Frank Mauro

FCM, UBCM or Community Futures—I'll say those three.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Very good.

To what degree are the shortcomings in your small craft harbours impeding the commercial success of your commercial fishery?

Mr. Wentzell, from the east coast, I'm given to believe that the commercial fishery is obviously much more important in relative terms than it is on the west coast. If you're looking at, say, southern Nova Scotia, are you seeing the shortcomings in the small craft harbours getting in the way of the commercial success of your fishing industry?

12:20 p.m.

Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee

Tim Wentzell

Most definitely. There are harbours in my region right now that are currently closed to any new members coming, and they can't accommodate more vessels. They're actually bursting at the seams because of the size of the vessels.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Given that, and given that there's material interest on the part of the fishers to get those facilities in good shape, are you of a mind that we have the proper balance between the user-pay model for necessary improvements or a state of good repair, and the everybody-pay model, which of course is funding that would come through small craft harbours?

We heard that the industry in your area is especially lucrative. We wonder if there's a sufficient contribution from the people who are deriving the financial economic benefit from the small craft harbours but are looking for somebody else to pay for improvements that would make their business even more profitable.