Evidence of meeting #135 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Thank you.
Now we'll go to the Conservative side. Mr. Doherty, you have seven minutes or less please.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Ms. Klineberg, animal welfare legislation usually focuses on the animal and the act, or the cruelty of the act, that causes distress on the animals. Is that correct?
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
Well....
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
Certainly provincial legislation aims at the prevention of animal cruelty and the protection of animal welfare.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Bill S-203 does not express any of that, correct?
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
Well, the sponsors of S-203 have indicated that they are approaching it through the lens of the keeping of cetaceans in captivity.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
I would only say that in proper criminal law, we don't see those words used in the provisions that would amend the Criminal Code. The whole entire purpose of the criminal law is to declare which actions are morally against our social values.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
If we look at the offence that pertains to the performances, they talk about performances for entertainment purposes.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Right. What is criminal under this bill, aside from capturing for the purpose of.... I'm going to go back to the question that I asked Senator Sinclair. In that paragraph, everyone commits an offence:
who promotes, arranges, conducts, assists in, receives money for or takes part in any meeting, competition, exhibition, pastime, practice, display or event at or in the course of which captive cetaceans are used for performance for entertainment purposes unless such performance is authorized pursuant to a license issued by the Lieutenant Governor in Council of a province or by such...person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Lieutenant Governor in Council
In taking part in an event such as that—just by virtue of that paragraph—you could be breaking the law or committing an offence.
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
One way to look at what “takes part in”.... I noticed the other question that you asked Senator Sinclair talked about “promotes”. In interpreting the scope of this offence, one would look at all those action verbs. “Promotes”—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
“Takes part in” might be interpreted to require that it's somebody actually taking part in the organization of it, as opposed to just the observer.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Well, that's not true. It says, “takes part in any meeting, competition, exhibition, pastime, practice”—i.e., holidays—“display or event in the course of which captive cetaceans are used for performance for entertainment purposes”.
With that line there, they would be breaking the law or committing an offence. It could be interpreted that way.
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
I think there is a broad interpretation and then an interpretation that focuses on the people organizing the event.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay, I have another question to that. It's a follow-up question to Senator Sinclair. If one of our Canadian facilities is transferring—gifting or otherwise—to another organization, would they not be then contributing to committing a crime, because they are then aiding and abetting the organization that is getting the cetacean to continue a performance, whether it is for entertainment purposes...?
4:45 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
I'm not entirely certain that I understand the factual description.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I'm going to go back to Mr. Burns' comment where he said, “Bill S-203's proposed amendments to WAPPRIITA would prohibit the import and export of a live cetacean or its reproductive materials unless authorized by the Minister of Environment and Climate Change for scientific research purposes or if it's in the cetacean's best interests.”
That comment alone, coupled with that paragraph in the piece of legislation, would then lead a reasonable person to believe that if the Vancouver Aquarium is transferring its last dolphin to another organization that does have performances or does conduct performances for entertainment purposes, it would then be in conflict of the law and committing an offence.
4:50 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
You mean if the animal is sent outside of Canada?
4:50 p.m.
Joanne Klineberg
What would that mean?
The exportation is not covered by the Criminal Code provisions.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
However, it is saying that it prohibits the import and export unless it is authorized by the Minister of Environment and Climate Change for scientific purposes and if it's in the cetacean's best interests. Isn't it the whole purpose of Bill S-203 to say that these types of performances are not in the best interests of the cetaceans? Could one argue that?
4:50 p.m.
Carolina Caceres Manager, International Biodiversity, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
What I could speak to is WAPPRIITA. You're talking about the export and then the conditions around export as potentially....
My role in Environment and Climate Change Canada is in relation to WAPPRIITA. When I look at Bill S-203—and if I understand your question correctly—it says that there shall be no authorization of exports of a living cetacean, and the exceptions proposed are for “conducting scientific research” or “keeping the cetacean in captivity if it is in the best interests of the cetacean's welfare”.