Fisheries Committee on April 3rd, 2019

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here today.

One of you mentioned—Mr. Mullowney, I believe that was you—that you have a very robust assessment process. Can you describe how it is robust? I'm looking at increasing stocks. From what we're seeing here, it looks like a very strong fishery.

With regard to the west coast fishery, we continually hear how the stock assessments are lacking. They are insufficient. The data isn't there. It's slow coming in.

What is different with this type of assessment that you claim is so robust? Can you indicate what the difference might be between these assessments and the west coast assessments?

[Darrell Mullowney]

I can try. I can't speak to specifics about the west coast situation. I assume it's mostly salmonid species that you're speaking to.

The crab is a big offshore stock that is probably, in many respects, easier to assess than rivers where salmonids may occur. We have, in crab in particular, several suites of surveys that are designed to monitor the stock.

We have what are called multi-species trawl surveys that are done in each NAFO division each year. Some regions get them twice a year. We have trap surveys done with industry, which cover our whole area as well. Along with that, we have, as I mentioned, a pretty in-depth suite of fishery-dependent data, observer coverage on commercial vessels as they go offshore, along with logbooks.

The consultation process is robust, in that it's inclusive and fairly open. Our stock assessments are attended by industry and academia, indigenous groups, etc., in a peer-reviewed fashion with a scientific panel. We seek consensus views on the status of the stock, and following that, consultations are fairly broad too, at least in my region. We go out to the communities and then spread the messages.

With respect to the salmonids, I would suspect it's harder to get such a robust monitoring program in place in a river-by-river type of system.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I've noted that snow crab and lobster are basically effort-limited in their catch and what's brought in. What is being done to manage the effort? Is that something that is simply a fact of weather, conditions and economic situations? If you're simply relying on effort to manage the amount of the species that is harvested, what other measures do you have in place to adjust that, should there be a need?

[Matthew Hardy]

I'll start with lobster. With respect to managing the effort, over time effort is stable where we have a limited number of fishermen and a limited number of traps that are allocated. We have seasonal controls. We have trap designs to limit the amount of effort that is exerted on the population. The idea there is that you want to have a good fishing period, allow for the fishing activity to take place, but ensure that you're not having an excessively high removal and that you're leaving stock in the water to continue to reproduce—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

If I could interject here, we've seen in our tours of the east coast an incredible increase in the size of the vessels, indicating to me an incredible increase in effort. What is the department doing to monitor that increased effort and be prepared should it reach a breaking point?

[Matthew Hardy]

Go ahead.

[David Whorley, Director, Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I'm happy to try to speak to that.

Certainly, you're right. We've seen increased sizes in vessels, and it does create real congestion problems in some harbours. In some of the places where we used to be able to berth three vessels, we're berthing two. I know the small craft harbours are trying to work with harbour authorities to work that out.

It's true that vessels have gotten larger, but they're still within the traditional sizes, though certainly they've gotten broader with these larger beams. The input controls remain the same. You still have the same limitations on the number of traps, the trap designs and everything else. It's true that the vessels are probably more robust and can probably stay out at sea a lot longer, but you still have the basic input controls. I think where you see the most challenges there is around the berthing and the maintenance of the harbours around the larger vessels.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

What is being done to allow for new entrance into the fishery, either snow crab or lobster fisheries? Is it simply an upsizing of current capacity or basically passing current licences on to family members or others who are willing to purchase? Is there a new entrant program for either the lobster or the snow crab fishery?

[David Whorley]

Effort-based fisheries have limited entry. They set a limit on the number of licences. Licences can be transferred or sold, but in terms of expanding that, there's no real work under way to substantially increase the number of entrants into the program.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So it's basically by expansion of what's there right now. You mentioned you didn't see too much of a problem, other than with the berthing, but we've seen vessels out there that are as wide as the former vessels were long.

[David Whorley]

Yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

They were basically floating platforms capable of carrying exponentially more traps than they were originally able to. If that continues to expand, is there a tipping point you're going to reach?

[David Whorley]

It's true that the vessels have gotten larger. Some of the beams on those boats are pretty big. However, the control function.... It's true that they can carry more traps, but given the limited entry by the number of licences and the limitations on the number of traps.... It's true that you could load more traps onto a boat, but you'd have to enter into partnership arrangements to do that. You still have the basic input controls that have been described. You have larger vessels fishing more traps, but they would have to be in partnership with existing licences.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry. Your time is up.

We'll now go to the NDP.

Mr. Johns, you have seven minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, all, for your testimony today and for being here.

I'm just wondering if we could talk about local knowledge and how you incorporate that into establishing the total allowable catch. Maybe we can start with the snow crab and move toward the lobster. How are you consulting with indigenous communities? Obviously, that's quite a big area, so it's going to be quite a range, from northern Labrador all the way down to southern Newfoundland.

Also, could you talk about the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union and how you're working with them? Maybe you can speak a little bit about that in regard to consultation.

[Darrell Mullowney]

In the Newfoundland and Labrador region, we collaborate predominantly with industry. There is indigenous collaboration, but that's probably more relevant to the lobster. I may ask Mr. Hardy to speak to that.

One major thing that we do in collaboration with FFAW is a trap survey that spans the whole area of Newfoundland and Labrador. It's a massive survey of some 1,200 to 1,250 stations, and it's done every year. We work collaboratively, in that the science branch of DFO will design the survey and give the instructions on how it is to be carried out, but it's actually carried out by fishermen on fishing boats on the water, and the data is collectively owned by both sides. It's a really good example of a collaborative initiative.

As well, at our stock assessments, they provide a suite of fishermen who will attend and provide their input and knowledge into the graphics they're seeing and maybe some discrepancies or their own interpretations of things. We do strive to arrive at a consensus on the final take on the resource in any given year, so it's quite inclusive with them.

Do you have any examples on lobster?

[Matthew Hardy]

You've covered it fairly well. The only thing I would say is that across the board, throughout our different scientific assessment processes, we have both fishing industry members and indigenous members, as well as different environmental groups that participate in those advisory processes. They are able to ask questions and share their experiences and their views with respect to how they think the stock is doing, things that they have observed on the water and all that information. Particularly, when there is specific information that can be shared, it can be incorporated into our assessment processes and also our fisheries management processes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In terms of the indigenous fishery, is it a rights-based fishery that is determined through a set quota breakdown, or has it been established through the courts or treaty? I'm sure each nation along the coast is quite different.

[David Whorley]

The rights-based fishery is the food, social and ceremonial fishery. It varies with different indigenous communities and it's negotiated through the indigenous fisheries leads in the regions, typically. It depends on actual need for individual communities. It sets limits or as-needed requirements for different species for those kinds of uses—food, social and ceremonial, or FSC. That comes out of the Sparrow decision. The individual agreements don't set out the right for it because the rights existed prior to European contact, but they are negotiated with fisheries management in the regions. They tend to be fairly small, artisanal-level fisheries.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Is there a lot of contention right now in the region in terms of unresolved issues related to the commercial side of the fishery?

[David Whorley]

FSC isn't commercial, of course. Coming out of the Marshall decision, there are commercial communal licences for first nations communities. Those are subject to rules that are pretty much analogous to those in the commercial fishery. There are two different lines along indigenous fisheries, one rights-based and one that is more like a commercial licence, though it's held by the community.

We had seen conflict some years ago surrounding poaching and illegal purchasing and sale around FSC, but I'd say that for the most part harvesters are like any other kind of harvester; they just want to go out and go fishing.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In terms of the assessments, how often are stock assessments conducted? I'll start with the snow crab and stay on that for a minute.

[Darrell Mullowney]

In all four regions, they are conducted annually. In the general seasonal cycle, the assessment would be in February. Then consultations would occur in February and March, and the fishery would generally get going in April. That's generally true across all four regions.

[Matthew Hardy]

For lobster, I would say it's a very similar process. Either we're producing a full stock assessment or we're producing an abundance indicator update, so that each year we're communicating out the results of our assessments and any changes to the population.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In terms of the lobster industry, what programs is DFO planning or implementing to help diversify the fishery? Can you speak to that at all?