Okay. Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #147 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was s-238.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #147 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was s-238.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
Now we'll go to Mr. Donnelly for seven minutes or less, please.
3:45 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, departmental officials, for being here and providing your testimony today.
I'd like to start by thanking the government for amending Bill C-68 to include the shark-fin ban. I've been working on this issue for eight years, and I'm glad that the government has recognized this. I'm glad we've heard that this will be included if Bill C-68 becomes law.
I'd also like to thank Senator MacDonald for his efforts on Bill S-238. I think he has championed this through the Senate and the upper house and done an admirable job of raising awareness about this issue in Canada.
As I mentioned, I've been working on this issue for the past eight years, so I'm happy to see it finally get to this point. We're almost there. We're not quite there.
I also think we'd be remiss if we didn't thank all the organizations and individuals who have helped to get this legislation on the government's radar to this point. There was HSI Canada, Oceana, Rob Stewart, and his parents certainly, just to name a few. As well, many municipalities across the country have also implemented shark-fin bans.
I have just two questions. One is on enforcement.
Once Bill C-68 or Bill S-238 becomes law, could you describe the implications for our border officials? In other words, once this becomes law, how does this law affect them? How do they enforce this law?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
This would be enforced by our CBSA and Environment Canada officials at the points of entry into Canada. As people come across the border, as shipments come across the border, they would be inspected for the range of products that CBSA currently looks for. This would be added to their list of prohibited substances coming across the border.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Any shark fin of any type or part of a shark fin that a CBSA officer comes across would not be allowed entry into the country at all?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That is correct.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Great. Okay, thank you.
My second question is along the lines of what my colleague earlier talked about in terms of changes.
If Bill C-68 becomes law, what will be the changes in Bill C-68 if Bill S-238 becomes law?
What I'm hearing is nothing, that it's mirrored, except that the derivatives and the words “live sharks” were removed from the definition. Other than that, it's essentially exactly the same. There is no difference.
Is that correct?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That is correct.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Okay. I think what it comes down to is that we have to hope that Bill C-68 gets out of the Senate and comes back to the lower house and gets royal assent before the House rises next month. That's where we're at.
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That would be correct.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.
We go back now to the government side. We have Mr. Fraser for seven minutes or less, please.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here today.
I want to pick up on a couple of points from Mr. Donnelly.
Regarding the enforcement, the CBSA officials obviously have the job, if this bill becomes law, to ensure there's no importation of shark fins. What is the penalty for anyone contravening any aspect of Bill S-238, and are Bill S-238's penalties the same as what would be in Bill C-68?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The penalties would be the same. I'm going to ask my colleague here from Environment and Climate Change Canada to comment on the penalties, but yes, the penalties would be the same, whether the legislation is stand-alone legislation in the private member's bill or in Bill C-68.
3:50 p.m.
Carolina Caceres Manager, International Biodiversity, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
Thank you.
I'm referring back to some previous information, some previous testimony from my colleagues who are in charge of wildlife enforcement. They indicated that the penalties under WAPPRIITA, the Wild Animal and Plant Protection and Regulation of International and Interprovincial Trade Act, range from a maximum penalty of $500,000 to five years in prison as a maximum, as an indictable offence.
I think there was a recent change, so this might not be 100% accurate, but as a summary offence it's $100,000 and two years in prison.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay. Do you have any sense of similar types of infractions in the Fisheries Act already, and how they're actually dealt with by the courts?
My fear here is that we could include this in law, but given the fact that it's quite a lucrative industry, I just wouldn't want it to be the cost of doing business if someone feels that they're going to be able to pay a penalty and only get caught some of the time. Is that a realistic concern, given this framework, or is this sufficient?
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's a challenging question for me to answer, but I would actually like to focus on the fact that the importation would be prohibited, so when it's caught it's not that it gets in under a fine; it's that it's refused entry into the country. It's keeping the shark fins out of the country.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I understand, but if when people are caught they feel like the fine is not sufficient to prevent them from doing it again, or whatever, then in practice is it going to be effective? That's the question.
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Again, I'd say that's a challenge. I don't understand the economics of the industry enough to know, but for me, I think a $500,000 fine would be sufficient to deter me from doing that.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll have to ask my colleague.
3:55 p.m.
Manager, International Biodiversity, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
I'll have to check. I'm reviewing really quickly. Right now I don't see a minimum.
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Is that something we can follow up on? I'm sorry, but we don't have that information on hand.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Sure. You can get back to me on that.
Do you know whether CBSA would have the ability or the enforcement mechanism, if they became aware of a practice in a restaurant or of some other person using shark fins, to investigate whether things have been imported?
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Through the WAPPRIITA, we would have the ability to enforce that.