Evidence of meeting #147 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was s-238.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Gillis  Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Doug Forsyth  Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Carolina Caceres  Manager, International Biodiversity, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Okay.

I want to move on now. You said that Bill C-68 implements everything that Bill S-238 does, except for derivatives. Can you tell me what you mean by derivatives or what was meant by derivatives in that context? That's not clear.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

The concept of derivatives was introduced into the bill during the committee stage in the Senate. While the definition of derivatives wasn't provided at that stage, it's my understanding that derivatives involve the materials being processed. For a fin itself to be processed into a derivative, I'm assuming it would be in some type of powder or a collagen or something like that. It would be something that would be processed.

The challenge with derivatives is that it's difficult to enforce the derivative. We don't know if it's something coming across the border that is labelled as bone meal or something. It's challenging to enforce the derivatives like that.

The other element is that sometimes shark derivatives, and not necessarily from fin, are used in cosmetics for collagen, or in vaccines. Again, I think the policy intent of the bill was to deter the practice of shark finning, which is why we focus on shark fins or their parts in the legislation.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

Now we go back to the Conservative side.

Mr. Arnold, go ahead for five minutes or less, please.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just looking for a little bit of clarification, and then I'll share my time with Mr. Calkins.

Mr. Gillis, I picked up on one word you used this afternoon, and that was “naturally” attached. The term could have significant meaning in this bill. When I read the latest publication of the bill, it simply says:

...parts of shark fins that are not attached to a shark carcass, or any derivatives of shark fins.

Did you use the word “naturally” attached?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

That was not strategic.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

It was not strategic. Could that potentially be a problem with this bill? Could someone simply use a big safety pin to attach fins to a shark if they are unnaturally attached?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

No. I should have stuck with the language in the legislation and just said “not attached”.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

I am sharing my time with Mr. Calkins.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Thank you, Mel.

Thank you to the officials for being here. This is interesting.

First I would like some clarification. We've had the discussion about the difference between Bill S-238 and Bill C-68, but what is the difference between Bill S-238 and Bill C-68 and the current regulatory environment? Is there enough of a discrepancy that we're actually substantively changing anything in the Canadian practice insofar as shark finning is concerned?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

For the Canadian practice, there isn't.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

It could be said, then, that the legislation is simply enshrining in the legislative framework what we already have in place as a regulatory practice. Would that be a fair summation?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

I would say that the policy intent behind Bill S-203 is to prohibit importation and exportation of shark fins.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

It's Bill S-238, but that's fine. Bill S-203 is a whale of a story.

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

You guys did that already.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

That's all right; we get confused too.

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

The policy intent is to deter shark finning, the importation and exportation. That is incremental.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Okay. That's what I am asking you.

Are you saying this legislation, either through Bill C-68 or Bill S-238, if they pass, will actually enhance the current environment and strengthen the regime?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

Yes, that's correct.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

That's fine. Great.

The question I have for you is this. You mentioned that the enforcement would probably lie strictly with the Environment Canada officials and the Canada Border Services Agency officials. However, you did indicate that commercial fishermen or other fishermen may find that they have caught a shark. I've caught many sharks deep-sea fishing myself in Canada's coastal waters.

What is the opportunity for a fisheries officer from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to enforce any of this legislation, and do they have ex-officio status for the wild animal and plant protection legislation, or do they simply have status under the Fisheries Act ?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

The DFO fisheries enforcement officers would be dockside to monitor the domestic fishery and the regulations, the fisheries licence policy.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Okay. It's not illegal to catch a shark because, as you've said, bycatch is allowed, so then we're to assume that the only shark meat in the Canadian marketplace, should this bill come to pass, would be fish caught in Canadian waters, period.

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

Well, as Member Hardie mentioned, a foreign exporter could choose to export a shark as a whole—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

You mean as a whole carcass. All right. Good.

Do we have any idea of whether there is any IUU for sharks in Canadian waters?

4 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Paul Gillis

I don't have that information.