Evidence of meeting #151 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marian Weber  Adjunct Professor, Department of Resource Economics and Environmental Sociology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
David Poulton  Principal, Poulton Environmental Strategies Inc.
David Mark Wells  Senator, Newfoundland and Labrador, C
Paul Norris  President, Ontario Waterpower Association
Daniel Gibson  Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

5:10 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

I can, provided that there are no limitations on their ability to do the work today. If there are no capacity issues or no financial limitations to these organizations going out and doing more, then I would agree with you, but if there are organizations that are looking to take on these opportunities and these types of projects and they have that limitation of finances, then there is an opportunity for corporations like OPG to play a role, I think.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Maybe we'll go to you, Mr. Norris, and get Mr. Gibson to chime in.

We've heard from our previous witnesses that the legislation would just enable third party banking to take place, but that the essential elements of the regulations would really define how well it's going to work. I guess I would ask your advice. What would you see as the essential elements in regulation that would make something like third party habitat banking work in the public interest?

Do you have any thoughts on that?

5:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Waterpower Association

Paul Norris

Yes. It's a great question.

I think that in regulation you would have to give some thought to whether you are going to define which organizations or types of organizations would be eligible to be offset providers, right? You would certainly need to have some stipulation around the notion of tradable credits and what they look like. All of those things would have to be outlined in the regulatory framework for sure.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Gibson, do you have any thoughts?

5:10 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

I was just going to add to that. I'm writing them down as I'm listening to Mr. Norris.

One is transparent debit and credit systems, something that the Canadian public would have confidence in. Another is a science-based and evidence-based approach, such as science advisory committees or a centre of expertise within the DFO. Right now, DFO has a centre of expertise for hydroelectricity. I believe it's in Manitoba. A similar type of centre of expertise on the habitat banking regime would be appropriate.

Right now, we have proponent-led habitat banking, which is good, but for the broader audience or the broader groups outside of large corporations like OPG or, as I think was mentioned earlier in the testimony, the harbour in Vancouver—

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Port Metro Vancouver.

5:15 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

Yes, Port Metro Vancouver. Thank you.

For smaller players, that sort of science advisory group within DFO would be beneficial.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Do you see any risks or perils in turning something like this into a commodity? It seems, especially with all of the stuff that goes on in the world of high finance—which I don't pretend to understand—that you do get market distortion. You get all kinds of things happening. I would hate to suggest that we're going to see money laundering coming into this, but Lord, it's showing up everywhere. Is that the sort of thing that you would also need to ensure the regulations would cover off?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

I have no expectation of the timeline according to which regulations would come forward through DFO. I think what we're looking for, and sort of supporting, is enabling legislation to get it started.

I share your concerns. I think that's what smart regulations are for. I think all the associations you have heard from today would be happy to sit around the table with DFO to try to support their development.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Now we will go to the Conservative side for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, Mr. Arnold.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both of you for being here today for this certainly interesting testimony that we have heard around habitat banking and so on.

I want to refer to some testimony that we heard back in December of 2017. Dr. David Schindler stated that the Liberal Government of Canada pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change presents three scenarios for replacing fossil fuel power with 100,000 megawatts of hydroelectric power. He stated that this new capacity of hydroelectric power would require building 100 facilities the size of Muskrat Falls or Site C by 2050.

How much habitat banking would have to be amassed in order to offset the construction of 100 facilities the size of Site C or Muskrat Falls?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

You're asking a very hydro-centric question, and I'm happy to try....

I can't quantify that; I'll start with that. However, the idea of developing hydroelectricity and developing reservoirs is a question of how you perceive the development. There is change on the landscape. When you create a reservoir, you're changing a riverine environment to a lacustrine environment, and that is change.

However, to look at it from a different angle, Lac Seul is a huge lake in northern Ontario that was once a river. It has been turned into a world-class wildlife fishery largely because of controlled water and controlled waterpower. In that situation, you've created a very massive reservoir in which, you could argue, the productivity of the fishery has increased as a result of the development, but it was developed first for hydroelectricity.

I have had many conversations with DFO about this, and that's not how they view the Fisheries Act and not how they view compensation offsetting. However, habitat is created when you create large lacustrine environments.

That may take a little bit of a perception change, but to enable that much hydroelectricity to be built.... I'll use another example. The Lower Mattagami River was once a river, and now we have a very slow-moving lacustrine environment that is arguably much more productive than it was in its original state. Wetland has been created, and we now have waterfowl showing up on the backwater wetland pockets. We don't see that as a net benefit of the project; it's just a by-product of the project.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

I'll ask you both to comment on this one. We've heard statements that this system of habitat banking and offsetting is new. I would counter with the statement that it's not—it's been in existence for some 60 years with the Columbia Basin Trust fund, which sees money coming from the U.S. into Canada for fisheries projects, for fish habitat projects, because of the impacts the damming of the Columbia River has had. It is now dammed in 12 or 13 different places, some in B.C. and some in the U.S., and compensation comes to Canada and goes directly into fish habitat projects throughout the region from that.

Would either of you comment as to other projects that you know of, in which this type of habitat banking or habitat compensation has been taking place? Would you agree that it's not a new concept?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

I think you're specifically speaking to sea-run or oceanic fisheries in which salmon come into and out of a river every year. We don't necessarily have many of those per se in Ontario.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Funds from the Columbia Basin Trust were actually going into non-anadromous species, resident species that weren't sea-run.

5:20 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

To your point, it has been around for a long time.

5:20 p.m.

President, Ontario Waterpower Association

Paul Norris

It is a different model, because what you're talking about there is the investment of financial resources directly into a trust fund, which then administers the outcomes that are desired. There's an intermediary there.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

It's not actually—

5:20 p.m.

President, Ontario Waterpower Association

Paul Norris

What's a little bit different here is that.... Pardon?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Sorry; in that case, it's not the proponent that is doing the work or the offsetting. This isn't something new that.... What's being restricted is proponent-only offsetting in the—

5:20 p.m.

President, Ontario Waterpower Association

Paul Norris

Yes, it's just a different model.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

You indicated that you have seen net habitat gains from some of the projects that have been done.

5:20 p.m.

Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of Fisheries Working Group, Renewable Generation and Environment, Waterpower Canada, Ontario Power Generation Inc.

Daniel Gibson

I'll expand on that comment.

My meaning was that you can have the assurance of having a productivity net positive, a net gain in productivity. A lot of what happens with the existing regulatory regime is that you have some uncertainty with your offsetting plan. If you're going to permit a project and you're going to authorize an activity, there is some uncertainty associated with the effectiveness of that offsetting. Through habitat banking, you can gain more certainty, because the project is built in advance.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.