Fisheries Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the three guests this afternoon, the witnesses, for taking the time to come here and present to committee.

My first question would be to both Tony Doyle and Mr. Cobb. Both of you referenced the capelin fishery and its importance to cod's survival and the cod stock in general. We heard the same thing from scientists in Ottawa last week when they presented to committee. As you see ups and downs in the capelin stock, you see the same trend in the cod stock.

Tony, you mentioned the capelin fishery again this year and in years past, the lateness of its coming and everything. What do you think we should be doing, as a government, when it comes to the capelin stock? As you say, everybody is focused on where the cod stock is—what it's doing, how it's growing, whether it's decreasing, what the biomass is—but from what we've heard from everybody who's presented to us, the capelin fishery is just as important.

I know there was a fishery this year. I passed by fish plants that were loading up transport trucks, fish containers and all, on the way for processing or whatever was going to be done with them.

Should we continue down that road? Where should the capelin fishery go as we're moving forward in trying to maintain and hopefully bring back the cod fishery?

[Tony Doyle]

I think there should be more scientific study done on the capelin, because right now my understanding is that there's nothing done offshore. The science people are going to a couple of traditional beaches where a lot of capelin used to land—say Holyrood and Bellevue, somewhere like that—and checking to see what amount of spawn is there. That's pitiful. One of the recommendations that should come from this committee is that there should be more scientific study of capelin to see what the stock is really doing and how it's doing.

I'm not sure myself. I asked myself if the stock of capelin that come to Conception Bay is at a low number compared with places further north, like Bonavista Bay. It seems they have a lot more capelin in other areas to the north, but at St. Mary's Bay, Southern Shore, Conception Bay, it seems like it's been sporadic. You get real good years, and then you get years like this year when it's pretty sparse.

I think we need to take the whole thing into perspective, because we have not only the cod that are dependent on it but also all the seabirds and the whales, and the seabirds on Baccalieu. The last couple of years, the diving birds did quite well. Murres and gannets, the gull and the tickleace—the lady, we call them—they're not doing well. They're not bringing out many chicks because they're only fishing in the top 12 inches of water, and if the capelin aren't up there, they can't get them. I'm out there a lot during the summer and I see what's happening.

[Anthony Cobb]

Mr. McDonald, I would say, in the absence of science and if we're going to manage any or all of our fisheries on the basis of the precautionary principle and science-based policy-making, we'd have to conclude today that there should be an absolute moratorium on capelin—today. There is no scientific research that's been done on capelin since 2012, to my knowledge, yet we have commercial fishery of capelin.

That certainly doesn't seem to respect the principle in the document I presented earlier. In the absence of such, I think there should be an absolute moratorium. I think you have to look at the economic benefit of that capelin and the consequence of taking it. The consequences of taking the capelin are dire to the cod, and we have a body of scientific evidence that proves this.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you.

Again, Mr. Cobb, I have a question about your presentation on what's been done on Fogo Island for the sustainability of the community, for the mere survival of the communities that exist there, and how everybody kind of came together and bought into that process to make it work.

Do you think the same type of approach could mean the survival and sustainability of many of the small communities that we see in the province today, where there is a decrease in the number of people who are staying in these communities across the island?

[Anthony Cobb]

We're very hopeful, actually. I'm very hopeful that the things that we're doing—certainly the things that we're doing with Fogo Island Fish—can be adopted and adapted by other communities.

I think the opportunity for communities to participate in markets, to take products to markets themselves directly, is certainly easier now than it has ever been in the past. Working on Fogo Island Fish together, my wife and I have been able to work directly with our fishers. We purchased fish from 33 fishers last year, and this year we're going to purchase fish from 75 fishers out of a total of 100 fishers. We were able to get markets for that fish primarily in Ontario with just the two of us working on it.

I think for other communities that's a small-scale approach and small-scale thinking, but I think it can have a profound impact, particularly when you can double the economic impact to your community by doing so. There are lessons learned in the things that we've done for other communities, absolutely, and not just here in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think it's a national issue. I think we have fishing communities all over the country that are struggling with the same issues we are. I think going direct to market and taking premium product to premium markets is an answer for many communities in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. McDonald. I appreciate your keeping it to seven minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you to our guests today.

Every round has been informative, and this one brings yet another perspective. I appreciate the testimony of the groups that are here with us.

Mr. Doyle, can your correct me? Did you say you fished the 3L division?

[Tony Doyle]

Yes, it was 3L.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Your testimony is, by my standards, contradictory to what we heard last week from DFO, which said the numbers are weak. We're hearing from your testimony—or so it appears, at least, and you're on the water—that the numbers are fairly substantial

[Tony Doyle]

Yes. I've been at the cod RAPs in peer review. We're in 3L, right on the northern boundary of the southern section. When you go to Southern Shore and up in the Trepassey and St. Shotts area or St. Mary's Bay, the fish are not as plentiful, but we're on the northern boundaries. Trinity Bay is that side of the line. They're doing well, and so is the area in Baccalieu Tickle, around Baccalieu Island, and off into the Bay de Verde area. This year there were fish right in the bay, right as far as Port de Grave, where fishermen were catching cod in the recreational fishery and in the stewardship fishery.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Cobb, you mentioned about the loss in fishers. About 60%, I believe, was what your numbers were. You didn't go into details as to why, but I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit on that.

[Anthony Cobb]

Of course there are a lot of complex issues around this question. We now live in a time when the cost to new entrants to a fishing enterprise is something in the order of a million dollars. I think there were some comments this morning about what's caused that, but that's where we are now. If a young person today wanted to go into the fishery—and we have young people on Fogo Island who would like to get into the fishery—they need a million dollars and more to do it. There isn't any financing in the province, with all due respect to guaranteed loans: those have to be vetted by banks, and banks have a bag full of noes. We all know that. That's not a viable option. That's not working.

We also legislatively now live in a time when all the regulations that you have to meet in order to go catch a cod are so onerous that it takes six to eight years of formal training, and fishing aboard a boat to get your hours aboard a boat, in order to become a fisherman. With no guarantee of prospects of income six or eight years out after you've succeeded, why would any young person invest a million dollars and six to eight years of life to try to pursue something with no guarantee of future income? It doesn't make sense.

What's I think is needed for cod specifically is a nearshore fishery, and we need to make it accessible to young people. We have a great number of young people whose fathers have fallen out of the fishery and who for various reasons couldn't take on the million or million-and-a-half-dollar obligations but would love to return to the cod fishery. If we had a nearshore small-boat fishery, predominantly for young people, with an appropriate level of training for that fishery and an appropriate level of investment required for it, I think we'd have a lot of new young entrants into the fishery.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Perfect.

Ms. Orren, did you say the graduation of your first class is September 27?

[Kimberly Orren]

Yes. That's tomorrow.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

It might be interesting for five or six MPs to drop by. I know we have a fairly hectic schedule, but it would be interesting to cheer on the graduates of this program. I do appreciate your program. Is it in the school district, or only on your own?

[Kimberly Orren]

No, it's not associated with the school.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

It hasn't been in the schools. Okay.

[Kimberly Orren]

It's a community-based, volunteer, non-profit program.

To address some of the comments that Mr. Cobb just made, it is true that it's a tangled issue to get into fishing. You have the provincial level, and then the federal levels—Transport Canada, Industry Canada. Then you have FFAW and PFHCB telling you what you can do to fish.

Young people are looking at a minimum—a million is really high—of $250,000 to get started, and as he said, six to eight years of training and then sea time. They're looking at that, and they see that as payment for an entire house. As for six to eight years, they're thinking that's graduate school. It becomes, as he said, quite onerous. A small inshore fishery boat for young people to get started.... Back in the day, they could push out a 22-foot boat and handline fish.

You also have to have some way to deal with them being able to market it as any individual business person could. That requires getting the province to come on side and reduce some of the policies on how they can market their fish and be able to ship it out of Newfoundland, too, which again is a provincial issue.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have more of a comment for the committee.

Far be it for me to steer us away from our topic and add to what's on our plate, but we've heard time and again about the importance of the capelin fishery. It might be something that goes hand in hand with our cod study. We might want to think about a substudy on the capelin fishery to go hand in hand with this one.

It's something for us to discuss at a later date, but I'd like to have it on the record so that we can fall back to it once we get back to Ottawa. It's very important. We've heard a number of witnesses testify to that effect. I think it's fairly clear to those around the table that if we're going to have action-based results...we can maybe get some understanding on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you Mr. Doherty. That's duly noted.

We've just made our second attempt to quell the noise next door. Again, my apologies. It kind of makes the Delta look a little more attractive right now, doesn't it? Nevertheless, we are going to go to Mr. Johns for seven minutes.

There's one thing I'd like to address. We have a new witness coming in for the next round. Unfortunately, Mr. Blackwood could not be with us. He has had to cancel. We're looking at Mr. Merv Wiseman as a witness.

Can I achieve unanimous consent for that? Mr. Wiseman has been involved in industry search and rescue, and agriculture as well, but he wanted to bring some thoughts here. Are we okay with that?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

All right.

Mr. Johns, you have seven minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you so much for your testimony.

I think local knowledge is clearly the most fundamental piece when we look at our fishery and how there's this huge disconnect.

I want to commend you, first of all, for your leadership. The investments you've made in your community are significant—your selflessness and commitment to moving forward in a new way with building the stocks in your communities and building healthier communities.

Mr. Cobb, you've invested quite a bit of your own capital into the co-op model. What could be done to replicate the co-op model from Fogo Island, or create some sort of hubs or incubators throughout Newfoundland and apply that from coast to coast to coast? Would that be something you might want to speak to a bit?

[Anthony Cobb]

Sure, absolutely.

I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't say that after 50 years of being together in a co-operative way, a co-operative model is certainly no panacea. Some days we think it's just an organized way to fight with each other, which is how it turns out some days.

The truth is that it has kept fishing alive in our community and it has kept our processing jobs in our community. It has kept us fighting and talking with each other and finding solutions. When we can have community-based processing, I think that changes everything. When we can have community-based processing, we can have community-based fishing.

I think a lot about scale. Fogo Island, as I said, has 10 fishing communities and 2,700 people. We are lucky we are large enough to have the critical mass to make that model successful. I do think, now more than ever, and certainly other folks here I think are of that view, that a small scale.... E. F. Schumacher wrote a book around 1974 called Small is Beautiful. It's a book about economics. I think it resonates with us more maybe today than it did in 1974. It's about scale. I think when we get the scale right and we keep it community-focused, we can do amazing things.

I'm going to do a shout-out here to British Columbia. There are some folks in British Columbia who fish for salmon. They fish by hook and line. They're on Instagram. They ship that salmon head on, gutted, to some of the finest restaurants in the world. We see it on some of the same menus as where our cod shows up, and I want to commend those folks for doing that.

I think that may not be specifically a co-operative model, but certainly it's community-based, it's premium product, and it's direct to market. We're certainly not the only people in the country who are doing that. We may be the first people in Newfoundland and Labrador, but there are other communities in the country doing it, and I encourage all communities to consider that approach.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, that was great. Ecotrust Canada, I think, introduced that as a partnership in Ucluelet. You can trace the fish right to the fishermen. The value is there. When you visited Ottawa, I think you talked about the fisheries down in Maine and Massachusetts and getting fish to plate.

Ms. Orren, you talked about regulatory support. What other types of support would help your program? I see a great connection, actually, between a co-op model and the program you're delivering, so that in every community we would have that education piece. It's key. It's an important foundation. Could you touch a bit on that?