Fisheries Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2016

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I obviously don't share Ms. Hipson's view that we're not interested in listening. I have heard from a number of people, and I know colleagues at this table have talked to me about concerns they've heard in their own constituencies, and you and I, Mr. Donnelly, had a conversation about it.

I'm very sensitive to the heightened public concern around the health and safety of wild fish stocks, and the interaction with, principally but perhaps not exclusively—I'm not a scientist—finfish aquaculture in open pens in open waters.

I had a rather robust conversation with our colleagues in the Senate yesterday about exactly that, saying that I think one of the obligations the government can move forward with very quickly is making all of the scientific data, all of the scientific information, available as transparently and as easily, understandably as possible. I'm not sure that's the right English, but I mean make it available in a way that people can understand.

We will be, as I said earlier to one of your colleagues, endeavouring to do that on an ongoing basis. We've made significant investments in science, $197 million, which largely recoups the cuts by the previous government in science. It's never enough. In my view, it's a good beginning; it's a good down payment. I'm hoping—and I believe—we can do more because that's the way we can reassure Canadians that we have the right balance, and that's also the way we can make the best decisions around these management issues.

As I said, Mr. Donnelly, a national aquaculture act, a number of people have called for that for a long time. I'm not sure it sees unanimity easily, but I think—back to Ms. Hipson—we should be open to understanding whether that would also be a way to ensure that the very best regulatory, legislative, and scientific measures are in place, enforceable measures are in place, and then listening to people like Ms. Hipson and other scientists who have strongly held views.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Excellent. Thank you.

You mentioned earlier that 1,100 staff were cut, those working on habitat protection in the department, and you also mentioned you are trying to fix that problem.

Wouldn't you agree there should be a moratorium on major energy projects or major projects that are impacting fisheries until that time?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It may not surprise you I'm not sure I agree with you. It's a trick question. We're confusing an oil tanker moratorium with a moratorium on major projects.

But no, the deputy tells me that about 170 of those staff reductions were in the habitat protection area. We went, as I say, from 63 to 16 offices. They were closed and that speaks to public confidence, too, Mr. Donnelly, in the sense that in Mr. McDonald's riding in Avalon they can't find somebody at an office who can answer their questions. It creates, I think, an unnecessary concern.

Of the 135 new scientists we committed to hiring with the money that budget 2016 gave us, as of April 1 of this year, we've already hired over a hundred of those, many of them working in world-class facilities in your province, like the West Vancouver Laboratory that I had the privilege of visiting this summer.

We're hoping to do a lot more, but the government will take its responsibility to look at some of these major energy projects.... I can imagine, perhaps, you're referring to one in particular, or a couple that may have come by this past summer. We will look at those—

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Well, certainly in our province we have Kinder Morgan; we have the northern gateway pipeline. Our province is seeing that those pipelines cross a huge number of water courses, fisheries habitat, so it's really important.

In the remaining short time that I have, perhaps I could turn to oceans for a quick second. Unlike the Magnuson-Stevens act in the U.S. or the European Union fisheries policy, Canada's Fisheries Act doesn't include any requirement to stop overfishing or create rebuilding plans in the act, and I know the department has policies that require rebuilding plans, but implementation has been very slow.

For instance, it has been 25 years since northern cod. Do you believe that rebuilding plans should be legally mandated in this act?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Donnelly, others have raised that with me. It's an interesting legislative construct. I'm told that some jurisdictions that have it have treated it fairly pro forma. You throw it up on the website once a year, you cut and paste last year's plan, just change the date, and put it out as a rebuilding plan. I think that feeds public cynicism and doesn't help the common objective of better managing our fisheries and aquatic resources. We have internally at the department, as you noted, a number of policy measures, and certain cases, like the Species at Risk Act, and so on, have different provisions. You're correct. You were referring to the Fisheries Act. You're absolutely right.

Again, if this committee feels strongly or has views on how that could be looked at as part of a modern regime.... I'm not sure it touches lost protections around habitat, but it's very much part of the conversation, past failures to either protect habitat or, to use your example, of overfishing. There have been examples for generations on every coast of decisions, made perhaps in good faith, that led to very difficult consequences.

The people who have suffered those consequences, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador around northern cod, will want to know that their government, and maybe their Parliament, are seized of this issue. If you have suggestions as to how we could do that in a legislative context, I would be open to looking at them. But I certainly share the root of your concern and would want to work with everybody to find the best way to do that.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'd just like to thank the minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I think you might have time to do that—

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, very good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

—because we still have a little over 10 minutes. We have about 13 minutes left. In the spirit of equality, we always go to three questions. They're going to have to be limited, however, if you choose to ask a question. We have about three to five minutes each.

Ms. Jordan, would you like to begin?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I just have one question.

I want to thank the minister again for coming in. A couple of things you say, 1,100 positions cut and going from 63 to 16 offices, really come back to what we've heard here, that it's become quite hard to be a DFO employee over the past number of years. We actually heard that in testimony on Monday.

The suggestion was made that this committee should consider, as part of the study, given the outstanding talent within the department, that perhaps they just need a little bit of space to do their job. Can you give us some insight on how, through your mandate, you intend to bring a different style of leadership to DFO?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Ms. Jordan, for the question.

I share your view. I have had, as a member of Parliament from New Brunswick, a chance to work directly with some of the local and regional officials of our department in various branches of Fisheries and Oceans, which is a highly decentralized department.

We now have the Canadian Coast Guard as partners in our department, a remarkable group of women and men, as well. To the person, the people that I've had the privilege of working with, as a member of Parliament, or certainly in the few months I've been the minister, are an outstanding group of Canadians. They care deeply about the environment. They care deeply about the protection of our oceans. They're inspired by the hard work of women and men who earn their living on the seas or lakes. Many of them volunteer with community groups and go to meetings in the evenings because they want to be actively involved in their communities and because they live in many of these communities that are directly affected by the decisions that they participate in taking.

I share your view that perhaps they have not felt as supported, as valued, as they should have been and as they are by Canadians. Some of it has been the financial constraints that the department has lived under. We're trying to remedy that. There's often never enough money to do all of the good things we want to do, but the deputy and I, along with the commissioner of the Coast Guard and the senior management of the department, have been working with the Treasury Board and ultimately the Department of Finance. I'm told that I'll have a chance to meet with some of the Treasury Board people in the coming months and hopefully resolve what we've been calling an integrity gap in the sense that we have more and more programs that Canadians expect the department to deliver on and, in some cases, we don't have the adequate resources to properly deliver those programs.

Ships are breaking down in the Coast Guard because we're not doing the maintenance because we have to use that money for operational purposes. That's not the way to run a multi-billion dollar institution, and that's not the way to best serve Canadians who care deeply about the work that the department should and can be doing. We hope to get to a better place.

But the mistakes, Ms. Jordan, will be mine, and the hard work and the insight that comes from the department will be from the remarkable group of almost 10,500 women and men who work in the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Jordan.

We now go to Mr. Doherty for three minutes, please.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, the International Chamber of Shipping, which represents over 80% of the world merchant fleet, has serious concerns about the Liberals plan to establish a moratorium on the shipment of crude oil on the waters of northern B.C.

Can you explain the impacts your proposed moratorium will have on jobs and the economy? From your testimony today, in the next few days you're likely going to make an announcement on this. Can you explain what that impact is going to be on jobs and the economy in the province of British Columbia, but also in Canada?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Sure, I can try.

I think you'll agree with me, Mr. Doherty, that we may not agree on the modalities of the moratorium or how and why there should be one, but I hope you'll agree that we were transparent in the election campaign with Canadians. It was a formal commitment that we made in the platform and it's a mandate letter instruction. We've taken the unprecedented step of making these mandate letters public, so Canadians can see that it's an instruction that both Marc Garneau and I have received. Marc Garneau, the Minister of Transport, obviously has the lead on this. I've been working with him.

We believe that there is understandable and reasonable concern on the northwest coast of British Columbia around oil tanker traffic. We believe that British Columbians care deeply, and I saw it in Bella Bella on Sunday. They care deeply about the protection of the coast, as you call it, and as they call it. Your magnificent province is defined by a deep attachment to the coast, and to an iconic species like salmon.

We're trying to find the right balance between economic development that's sustainable and responsible, and also reacting to scientific and public concern around the cumulative effects of some of these shipping routes.

To be honest, Mr. Doherty, I would suggest that on those questions, Mr. Garneau really has.... He has visited the coast of B.C., he's met with people like those from the organization you referred to, and he's in a better position than I am to address the specifics. I'm trying to give you a sense of the political commitment we've made to Canadians.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Minister LeBlanc, is it your testimony today that the federal government is going to announce in the coming days a moratorium on the tanker traffic on the west coast?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No, it's not. That was an extrapolation you made of what I said. We will be having some news on this and other issues in the coming weeks, I think. If I said days....

But it's no secret. This isn't a secret. If we didn't intend, as a party, to keep our election campaign commitments, we wouldn't have left the party platform on the Liberal website. There should be no confusion as to what that commitment was.

As to how it's put into effect and what the modalities of it are, as I said, it's really Mr. Garneau who has been leading that. I'm sure he would be interested in answering questions from colleagues in the House of Commons, or once we're advanced to a position where we have something to say publicly about this, I'd be happy to make sure that you or any of your colleagues who are interested have a chance to offer advice and understand exactly what this means. But it's hardly a secret that we intend to impose that moratorium.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Donnelly, you have three minutes, please.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I thank you, Minister, for spending the time here with us and answering our questions.

I have a number of comments that I want to add, and I'll finish with a question.

We referenced the Coast Guard, and I just want to thank the government for reopening the Kitsilano Coast Guard station. People on the west coast were absolutely welcoming that move and happy to see that.

On Vancouver Island, though, they are not so happy about the closure of the Comox MCTS station. Of course we've just recently had the sinking of the Nathan E. Stewart and we have Chief Marilyn Slett of the Heiltsuk Nation who, I believe, is in Ottawa this week to talk today about how that is impacting their aquaculture, their food, and their way of life.

In the remaining time, I just want to mention my bill. As you mentioned earlier, I have a bill on moving to closed containment on the west coast. There was mention last night from the parliamentary secretary of there being no evidence of impact from aquaculture. I hope that isn't the view of the minister and of the ministry, because I think there has been ample evidence shown that it is clear there is an impact. In fact, Justice Cohen recognizes that.

There was also a comment about unproven technology. We have Kuterra leading the way on the west coast and Sustainable Blue on the east coast, both using the proven technologies, Kuterra being probably a year away from profit.

Do you share those comments about there being no evidence and this being unproven technology?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You can't offer a politician a nice compliment, as you did, Mr. Donnelly, without allowing him a chance to thank you for it.

I do share your view. It was special for us, at Kitsilano, that you could participate in that announcement. I have learned from my colleagues from your province about the deep attachment people have to that Coast Guard base. We made a commitment to reopen one in a different but similar circumstance in the province of your committee chair, and we're hoping to have some news on that also in the coming days and weeks.

With respect to the aquaculture question you asked, maybe I'll ask Serge. I didn't see his speech last night; I was at another meeting. I know there is evidence around the economic viability, and some questions. “Evidence” is a legal term, but there are concerns and questions about the economic viability of moving to closed containment in some cases. I've heard that from a number of people, but as I said, I think the debate around your bill will enlighten that; it will offer some insight. Our department has contributed some money for various pilot projects to better understand how that might work. I know there are other jurisdictions in which it has been successful.

What I've said publicly is that we understand the heightened level of public concern around how this can be done safely and what the risks are. I won't answer with a leading question. What are the risks to fish and fish health, wild fish and fish health, of some of these practices? The public wants answers to those questions. Our department has a key role in helping them understand that through more science, and more transparent, accessible scientific evidence.

People who do not follow the conditions of their permits or who are not able to follow the appropriate measures that are in place to ensure there's no risk to fish health need to suffer, in a severe way, the consequences of not respecting those conditions or those undertakings. I've already spoken to the department about ensuring that we're very robust in that as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

To end—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

On a point of order, we went to great lengths to create our witness list, and it was a good witness list. However, last week we had a witness who was not on the witness list. I have no idea where Mr. Martin Olszynski came from, because he was not on our original witness list. My point of order is this. If now this witness list is going to change, one witness we asked for was the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, and they did not show up on this list. I met with them today and they are very keen to present to our committee, yet a witness who was not on this list showed up last week. That's essentially unfair. I request that CAPP be allowed to present.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Okay. It's not a point of order; however, I will comment on it because I think you may have a legitimate point. This witness list, as you know, in the beginning, was not written in stone. It is evolving. I'm certainly open to having a discussion to include someone if you wish.

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

To end, I would like to say something that hasn't been said in the House for about 40 years, and that is that the fisheries committee would like to thank its minister, Monsieur LeBlanc, for appearing here today. For those of you too young to remember, Mr. LeBlanc's father, Roméo LeBlanc, was the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans from 1972 to—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

He was elected in 1972. It was from 1974 to 1982. He was the first Minister of Fisheries and Oceans when the department was formed, but the longest-serving fisheries minister since Confederation.