Evidence of meeting #37 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was impacts.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Crocker  Minister, Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Agrifoods, Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
James Duncan  Director, Wildlife and Fisheries Branch, Manitoba Sustainable Development
Brian Parker  Senior Fisheries Manager, Wildlife and Fisheries Branch, Manitoba Sustainable Development
Margot Venton  Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada
Stephen Sutton  Coordinator of Community Outreach and Engagement, Atlantic Salmon Federation
Charles Cusson  Quebec Program Director, Atlantic Salmon Federation
Trevor Taylor  Director of Fisheries Conservation, Oceans North Canada
Elizabeth Barlow  Director, Aquaculture Development, Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Agrifoods, Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

4:55 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

If that's the way one wants to interpret the provision, I think we would be on the same page. We would agree that there probably is, from a biological perspective perhaps, no fish species out there that isn't involved in the ecological web of life that keeps the commercial fishery and all other fisheries alive. The challenge I have with this definition is that it attempts to narrow the focus, or it presents the appearance of having at least narrowed the focus, whether it intended to or not, sowing confusion into something that I don't think needs to be confused.

At least what was prohibited was clearer under the old definition. What we're aiming for in legislation is to be as clear as possible about the parliamentary or legislative intent, so that the people who are reading the act—particularly if you move towards what DFO has done recently with its self-assessment—totally understand what is supposed to be against the law and what is lawful. One of the real challenges we've struggled with since these changes, as I tried to explain in my presentation, is that there's a big question about what it actually means.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

From a clarity perspective, I think it would just be better to revert to that position, for that reason.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you. I need to carry on here.

To our representative from Manitoba, in your submission you mention that “there is an opportunity to have clear definitions” and “subject to interpretation” and “some lack of clarity”. Can you elaborate a little more? Is it really better definition, within what we have, that's really needed in this review?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Fisheries Manager, Wildlife and Fisheries Branch, Manitoba Sustainable Development

Brian Parker

We come across this both with respect to proponents and within government.

When we say “serious harm to fish”, for example, if we had a population of short-nosed sturgeon that had 25 fish in it, and there were five adult females, losing one adult female would be an important loss. It would be serious harm. Conversely, if we had a population of 100,000 hammer handle pike, northern pike—they're about 10 inches long—losing potentially 1,000 of those fish might not have a serious impact on the population.

When you say “death of fish”, and you say, “this is serious harm”, is that “death of fish” for one fish or to a proportion of the population, as I've said? there's that question as to what is the exact level of serious harm. In some respects, it doesn't have a qualifier that might say “this is some particular level that might be important”.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Okay. I think we're all probably in agreement that there's a better definition needed. Another place that it came up is in consistency of monitoring and clear standards. Are these new issues or have they been long-standing issues within the Fisheries Act?

5 p.m.

Senior Fisheries Manager, Wildlife and Fisheries Branch, Manitoba Sustainable Development

Brian Parker

I think there have always been challenges with respect to those issues over time.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you. Is—

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'm sorry, Mr. Arnold.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Is the time up?

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'm sorry. I was distracted there by the amount of information. I apologize. I lost track of time.

5 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

That was actually quite good, and I mean that sincerely.

Now Mr. Taylor has me in the mood of joking around on a serious matter. Sorry.

Ms. Jordan, please, for five minutes.

November 28th, 2016 / 5 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for appearing today. It has been a very interesting session with a lot of questions, so I'm going to try to keep it as concise as I can.

On the first question, I want to go to you, Ms. Venton. You've talked about the lack of enforcement and the closing of the habitat offices and how destructive that has been. In one of your recommendations you talk about adding “clear provisions that allows concerned citizens to request that DFO investigate an alleged fish habitat violation” and to “add a provision that allows concerned citizens acting in good faith to take action in the courts to enforce the act where DFO is unwilling or unable to do so”. Can you expand on that? Tell me how you see that actually working.

5 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

Absolutely. It's a recommendation for two separate provisions. This approach actually exists in some other legislation in Canada. There are parallel provisions, or similar provisions, in the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. Essentially, the request for investigation simply gives those who are out there on the ground a place to report to when they think the Fisheries Act is clearly being violated—or the habitat provision, in this case—and that creates a requirement to respond.

Something you see consistently in reports about the challenges that DFO has with enforcing the act in general, and habitat protection in particular, is just a general lack of response. Within the last year or two, since the budget cuts, our office has been getting a lot of calls about this from people who are frustrated. They say they phone and report things or ask questions, and they never get a call back or anything. We don't really know how to help them, because there is no mechanism under the act for anyone to complain or request that someone investigate. That's the request for investigation provision. I think it's in section 19 of CEPA, and that will be in our written brief, or you could look at the language of a provision.

On citizen enforcement, in the United States, citizen enforcement provisions are called “citizen suit provisions”. They also exist in legislation in Australia, and there's actually one under CEPA. It's a provision that allows people acting in good faith to take prosecutorial action, something that actually is envisioned under the Fisheries Act, in theory. In fisheries general regulations, there's a fine-splitting provision that clearly suggests that an individual can stand in the shoes of the Attorney General and prosecute. It's the kind of provision that essentially allows citizen groups or individuals to enforce the act if the government is not willing to do so.

If you look at some of the information we have, you'll see that we have the report to Parliament from 2014-15 that says there are no charges being laid under the act. Even when you look at where authorizations are being given or investigations are happening—and I believe some of this was presented to the committee in an earlier brief—there's a real regional disparity about where there are people on the ground now. I'm not from Vancouver. I live in a small coastal community in British Columbia called Pender Island. Truly, I've never seen a fisheries officer there, ever. There's a real challenge. It's a huge country, and we've cut back so significantly that when we see enforcement action here, there's a huge regional disparity. We need a mechanism that will allow for people on the ground and in the water to take action, especially when there's nobody there.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

If we had the restoration of enforcement and the opening of the habitat offices again, would you still see a requirement for those on-the-ground people?

5 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I look at Nova Scotia, for example, where we actually have a community neighbourhood watch group because there is no enforcement. I guess I'm just looking for some insight. I would prefer to see the people who are there and trained and hired by the government to enforce the act actually being able to do it. I guess that's my question. If we were able to restore some of those positions, would you see that solving the problem?

5 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

It would certainly help the situation. Unquestionably, I think that you need to properly staff and to equip the people enforcing the act to go out on the water and do that. Canada is such an enormous country that I question whether you could ever really get total enforcement in a country the size of ours. Other really big places, such as Australia and the United States, struggle with a similar challenge: it is a whole lot of land.

The independent review, court reviews of citizen suit provisions in the United States, and government reviews have all confirmed that those provisions, when used, are expanding enforcement capacity and actually improving compliance with regulation. Even if you restore those conservation officers, which is absolutely essential, I think there is still a role for citizen enforcement. Maybe it is simply the role that governments do a better job.... Government regulators can do a better job when they know someone is going to do that if they don't do their job, right? I think that would be helpful.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Ms. Jordan.

Mr. Sopuck, please, for five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

The notion of citizen enforcement absolutely appals me: citizens with no accountability to an elected official. I can see farmers being taken to court by multi-million dollar environmental organizations. It's exactly what happened in the seal hunt. There wasn't a legal enforcement mechanism, but again, these were impoverished rural communities being faced with multi-million dollar activist groups. Citizen enforcement without recourse to an elected official at some point is something I find completely abhorrent.

Ms. Venton, you talked about cumulative effects. Presumably, you mean incremental change in watersheds as one of those cumulative effects. I don't have much time here, but is that a fair assessment? A watershed gets changed by forestry, agriculture, or urbanization, and at some point there's a tipping point. Is that what you're basically saying?

5:05 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

Yes. It's the idea that if you have a lake, for example, a single decision to develop something or do something on that lake may itself not have an impact, but if you do the same thing 20 or 30 times where there are 30 or 40 different activities, that can create an impact, even though individually those single activities may not seem like such a big deal.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Okay. I'm going to present three examples right now: Ottawa, Calgary, and Winnipeg. Those cities are part of very significantly changed watersheds. Ottawa has been urbanized in terms of the Rideau Canal and all of that. Winnipeg sits in an agricultural watershed and is obviously urban. Calgary is a very large urban city.

In each one of those urban areas, there are major rivers flowing through them. Each one of those rivers, in those very urbanized watersheds, is full of fish. They are very significant fisheries, especially the walleye and catfish fisheries just outside of Winnipeg. Also, the Bow River in Calgary is considered one of the finest trout streams in North America.

I've just given you three examples of a significant watershed change. Watersheds have been changed beyond recognition, yet we have three rivers that are full of a very diverse fish community and also support very significant recreational fisheries. Given your view on cumulative effects, how do you explain that?

5:05 p.m.

Staff Lawyer and Director of Marine Program, Ecojustice Canada

Margot Venton

I think this is one of the reasons why it's extremely important, as we said in our recommendations, for DFO to evaluate and assess what those watersheds can handle and where those tipping points are. I also think it's really tricky for us in North America in general, where we've had rivers and streams of such tremendous abundance.

As I said, I'm from a small coastal community in British Columbia, and you could say there are a lot of fish in the water, but if I talk to my neighbours who've lived there and fished there for the last hundred years, they'll say that there are no fish now.