Evidence of meeting #62 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interests.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Owen Bird  Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Gerry Kristianson  Chair, Sport Fishing Advisory Board, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome back to our study of marine protected areas. Today our meeting will be two hours. The first hour will be with our guests. I'll get to them in just a few moments.

During the second hour we're going to discuss several topics that we have to address, including the mission that we're going to be doing to western Canada, plus we're going to discuss the planning stage of the east coast trip for the fall, and a few other things you may want to bring up. Bear that in mind, because we have a substantial amount of time for committee business, so anything you want to bring up at that time, we'll talk about it then. That's an hour from now.

In the meantime we do have two very special guests this morning as we continue our study on marine protected areas.

First of all, before I get to that, I always like to introduce our special guests.

Jean-Claude Poissant is here with us.

Welcome, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude Poissant Liberal La Prairie, QC

Good morning.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We are pleased to welcome him.

I would like to mention that he represents the riding of La Prairie.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude Poissant Liberal La Prairie, QC

That's right.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Congratulations.

Once again, welcome.

We also would like to thank, from the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia, first of all, the executive director, Mr. Owen Bird. We also have, from the Sport Fishing Advisory Board associated with the Sport Fishing Institute, Gerry Kristianson.

We normally give 10 minutes to each group or individual. We're going to give you 10 minutes. You would like to split that time, is that correct?

8:45 a.m.

Owen Bird Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

We have presentations that will probably equal about 10 minutes, maybe slightly over.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We'll call it five minutes each or thereabouts. How's that?

8:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

You can take your time because you're the only two witnesses we have today. Who is starting first?

8:45 a.m.

Gerry Kristianson Chair, Sport Fishing Advisory Board, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

I'll start.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Kristianson, please proceed for 10 minutes or less.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Be generous, Mr. Chair.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I thought I was being generous.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I know these gentlemen. They're good people.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

You know these gentlemen. All right.

Have you met Mr. Sopuck? I guess you know Mr. Sopuck well. Very good then.

May 16th, 2017 / 8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Now you've just prejudiced this whole—

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

No kidding. According to Mr. Sopuck, I'm going to be extremely generous. Carry on ad nauseam.

8:45 a.m.

Chair, Sport Fishing Advisory Board, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

Gerry Kristianson

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Perhaps I should explain the relationship. I'm chair of the Sport Fishing Advisory Board, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' primary recreational fishing advisory body on the west coast, and in fact, is the oldest advisory body of DFO. It has been in existence for over 50 years and is a bottom-up organization with local committees in 23 communities, who send representatives to two regional boards, who in turn send representatives to the main board. I'm the elected chair of the main board. It's composed both of individual members and what one might call “institutional members”.

The Sport Fishing Institute is an institutional member, as is the B.C. Wildlife Federation, the Steelhead Society, and a variety of others. I also sit on the board of the SFI, and the SFI sits on my board. It's a fairly close relationship of organizations in British Columbia.

As background to my comments this morning, I do want to say that no part of government of which I'm aware—and I'm a political scientist by training—deserves as much credit as the Pacific region of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, for its diligence in consulting with those affected by its decisions, whether they be representatives of aboriginal, recreational, or commercial harvesters, or those championing conservation interests. Committees representing the sometimes divergent interests are consulted on the region's integrated harvest planning processes for salmon, groundfish, pelagic species, and invertebrates.

I have personal experience on the advisory boards for salmon, halibut, tuna, prawn, and groundfish, as well as the processes established to provide advice on the development of protected areas. It's in that capacity that I appear before you today.

I appear because I'm anxious to ensure that as the government proceeds with its promise to protect 5% of coastal marine areas this year, and moves on to protect 10% by 2020, it does so in a manner that continues to provide those affected by its decisions the opportunity to participate in the selection and designation process in a meaningful way, and does not encourage or facilitate end runs around transparent, knowledge-based consultation.

I offer two examples of what I mean. In my role as one of the three SFAB representatives on the Groundfish Integrated Advisory Board, I had the opportunity to provide input for the creation of the glass sponge reefs marine-protected area in Hecate Strait. A GIAB working group composed of commercial, recreational, and environmental interests worked long and hard to provide the department with a set of consensus recommendations. We were not initially successful in reaching agreement on the best way to protect these unique structures, while allowing fisheries to continue in ways that did not have an adverse impact. Two alternative proposals ultimately went forward to DFO's scientists and managers for consideration and analysis.

The department then responded with a compromise that seemed to be satisfactory to all interests, since no one at that consultative table opposed it, thereby satisfying the department's definition of consensus. The terms of that proposal were circulated in Canada Gazette, part I. At that point, however, one of the interests that had been part of the consensus chose to mount a web-based letter-writing campaign, which prompted the department to craft a substantially different set of rules for publication in Canada Gazette, part II.

Similarly, as a participant in the groundfish process, I was part of the process initiated by Environment Canada with respect to the protection of bird wildlife in the area of the Scott Islands, off the northern tip of Vancouver Island, by means of a national wildlife marine area. In this case, we were urged to put forward consolidated advice. We worked hard and achieved a consensus to support establishment of the conservation area on the assurance that it would not have an adverse impact on current aboriginal, recreational, and commercial fisheries. We were told by Environment Canada that current fishing activities would still be consistent with the purpose of the area. I note that the Scott Islands page on Environment and Climate Change Canada's website says that “Current scientific evidence suggests that no-take areas that prohibit all commercial and recreational fishing are not necessary to meet the conservation objective for the proposed Scott Islands...[national wildlife area].”

Unfortunately, despite the fact that it is clear that fishing activities have not impacted the birds' foraging species, such as euphausiids and sand lance, an effort is now under way to upset the original evidence-based conclusion and consensus. A web-based letter writing campaign has been aimed at imposing no-take zones on recreational, commercial and, presumably, aboriginal harvesters.

Against the background of these examples, I urge the committee to help both departments—Environment, and Fisheries and Oceans—to ensure that measures are in place to avoid having the consensus-based recommendations developed by formal departmental advisory bodies undermined by public relations campaigns. My sector wants transparent and evidence-based decision-making, although I hasten to point out that if government decides to begin basing its decisions on the volume of mail it receives, my recreational fishing constituency, which is composed of 300,000 tidal water licence holders in British Columbia, is more than capable of engaging in that kind of activity. We don't want to do that. We think it's the wrong approach, but if needs must, the devil drives.

That's the fundamental point I wanted to make with you today.

I do want to touch briefly on one other aspect of the process, which I think you need to be thinking about. That is that the planning process for these marine protected areas in British Columbia, and for other aspects of fisheries management, have incorporated a new paradigm on the west coast, and I suspect elsewhere in Canada. That is, the process begins with what are called by first nations, “tier 2” processes. That involves first nations talking to other governments, federal and provincial, and attempting to reach an accommodation, agreement and so forth. But in that process, the difficulty is that non-aboriginal Canadians don't become part of that discussion until after the tier 2 process has ended. What that means is that government, it seems to me, is put in an invidious position. If it wants to change the decisions it has made with first nations, it's then seen as betraying the good faith negotiations of the tier 2 process. On the other hand, from the point of view of those of us who were not in the room for tier 2, we are obviously not happy if we're then told, “Well I'm sorry, we reached this agreement.”

There is another way to do this, and I again speak as a member of a process in British Columbia aimed at bringing about pretty substantial change to the way we manage Chinook salmon. It's one of the most serious conservation management problems we face. In that case, that process began with a tier 2 process between first nations and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. At the suggestion of a wise first nations leader in Fraser Valley, Ken Malloway, who was co-chair of the process with DFO, the recreational sector, the commercial sector, and the environmental sector were invited to be part of the tier 2 process.

We've now been involved in that for about two years. It's going forward in a very satisfactory way, where people feel that they understand what's happening and are not being excluded from the process. I simply flag it here today as what I think is a preferred way to go forward, and one that takes into consideration all of these new marine protected areas on the west coast. I suggest that if we don't follow that kind of process, we're simply inviting unnecessary confrontation when decisions get made at one level and are then challenged or required to be modified at another level.

I thank you for your consideration today, and I am happy to answer any questions once my colleague has spoken.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Kristianson. We appreciate that.

Mr. Bird, for five to 10 minutes. Go ahead.

8:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

Owen Bird

Thank you, too, for the opportunity to comment on MPA development on the Pacific coast.

Gerry has framed our organizations and the relationship between the SFAB and the SFI, but I'll expand on that. I appear in my role as executive director of the Sport Fishing Institute of B.C. The institute has been in existence since 1980. We're a non-profit society. Members are made up of a wide range of committed stakeholders, including fishing lodges, resorts, certified tidal angling guides, hotels, small communities, and businesses. We represent the interest of those businesses, individuals, and the angling public they serve.

I provide comment today based on my role, but also on my personal experience as a lifelong coastal B.C. resident and angler.

It should come as no surprise to members of the committee that British Columbians value their coastal environment. Witness the public reaction to a small bunker fuel spill in Burrard Inlet in 2015 and a larger diesel spill near Bella Bella in 2016 if you want a sense of how people feel. But it would be a mistake to assume that marine protection and responsible access to the bounty of the coast are mutually exclusive.

British Columbians are fiercely protective of our orca populations, but woe betide the government that tries to ban whale-watching.

The same is true for the MPA process. We want our coast protected from serious threats, but we also want to continue to enjoy responsible access to resources and fisheries that support the economies of the local communities.

While I know some might suggest that sport fishing is incompatible with conservation, that reveals a lack of understanding of the work that our sector and DFO have engaged in for more than a decade. We've taken steps to ensure that local values are protected through rockfish conservation areas and refuge. The target species of the recreational sector are primarily salmon and halibut. Our impacts are low when they should or must be, and always less than commercial and many first nations fisheries.

We also need to be aware that there is more than one process at work on the coast. The provincial MaPP process has been very successful in engaging first nations in marine planning, but that process has not included equal access to other groups. More importantly, it was not informed by data generated by groups who were, at best, peripheral to the process and not suited to provide information from all stakeholders. MaPP makes recommendations on issues that are well outside provincial jurisdiction, potentially impacting fisheries that are clearly regulated by the federal government.

I ask that the committee carefully consider what happens if the MPA process removes areas of the coast from resource production. In the simplest terms, we welcome the MPA process, but must acknowledge why it is being considered in the first place. Canada could protect all of the values it outlines as its goal under the MPA process, simply by enforcing its existing environmental protection and fisheries laws, but that lacks the public cachet of a marine protected area. We understand the political realities of this.

In developing this additional form of conservation that is new—at least to the west coast—we simply ask that you not exclude activities like sport fishing, which are so intrinsic to the coast in the first place. Protect the areas so that people can go and enjoy them responsibly. Once they have enjoyed them, spending a day fishing with family or enjoying the environment, they will know that a given area is worth protecting in the first place.

If too much of the coast or ill-chosen areas of it are turned into a quasi museum, then they will exist only in photographs or as areas of escape for the very wealthy few, and won't allow the benefits and values of the coast to be understood.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Bird. We thank both of you for coming in and providing your expertise, as well as your experiences.

By the way, I didn't realize that the yours is the oldest advisory board of the DFO. Is that correct?

9 a.m.

Chair, Sport Fishing Advisory Board, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

Gerry Kristianson

Yes. It's the longest-established advisory process.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

That's pretty interesting. Very good.

We're going to go to our first round for questions.

The first one is by Mr. McDonald, for seven minutes, please.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing here today.

What would be the value of your industry or sector to the local economy, the provincial economy, and the Canadian economy?

One of you or both of you can answer it, if you wish.

9 a.m.

Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

Owen Bird

We may both want to chime in.