Evidence of meeting #63 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpas.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.
As you've noticed, we've lost the video for Dr. Roberts. We're going to try to patch Dr. Roberts back in. We seem to have lost him temporarily. I'm not sure whether he's able to hear us or not.
We're going to suspend for about a minute or two to patch Dr. Roberts back in via the phone. After a suspension for two minutes, we'll get to Mr. Donnelly's question. I'd ask everyone to hang on just for a couple of minutes.
Thank you.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Welcome back, everyone, with apologies to all. We're still unable to reach Dr. Roberts, but in the meantime we're going to have to proceed, because Mr. Donnelly hasn't asked his questions yet.
I apologize, Mr. Donnelly, if some of your questioning was towards Dr. Roberts. As you can see by the buffering symbol on the screen, we're trying to get hold of him now. If he's able to join us during your seven minutes, I'm willing to extend some of your time to compensate.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Do you want me to do half now and then half when he's available? My two questions are—
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Okay. Let's do three and a half minutes, or four roughly, and then we'll go to Mr. Morrissey and then come back to you as Dr. Roberts becomes available. Is that okay?
9:50 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Let's just move on, shall we?
Mr. Donnelly, take three and a half to four minutes, please.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all three of our guests and their witnesses for providing excellent concise and helpful testimony today.
Dr. Worm, let me start with you. You referred to a study about global case studies. I think you were talking about tools for fisheries recovery. I'm wondering whether you could send that report or that study to this committee.
9:50 a.m.
Prof. Boris Worm
Yes, it's no problem. I'll send it to the clerk. We call it “Rebuilding Global Fisheries”. We presented it at the time to the fisheries minister, Gail Shea, and also to the United States Senate and Congress..., so it has broad media coverage as well. I'll send some of that information also.
10 a.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Great. Thank you.
This is to all our witnesses. If there are studies that you have referenced in your presentation, I would certainly ask that you forward them to the committee, if you can. They become part of the record. I think it's really important for Parliament and for the government to have that information.
While I'm on this subject, Dr. Worm, you also referenced a study, and I think it's in your deck, about the importance of staffing and enforcing MPAs. Is it possible to send that study as well to us?
10 a.m.
Prof. Boris Worm
I will send all the studies that underlie this deck.
10 a.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
That's great.
Dr. Worm, you mentioned, and I think in the last round of questioning you were talking about the compatibility of some tourism activities with MPAs. I wonder whether you might talk about fishing and the compatibility of some fishing with MPAs. What are your thoughts there?
10 a.m.
Prof. Boris Worm
Are you talking about commercial or recreational fishing, or both?
10 a.m.
Prof. Boris Worm
As we've heard from other witnesses, the main target of protection is fish populations that have been impacted, although other MPAs like the Gully have been designated to protect other entities, like the bottlenose whales, which also could be impacted by bycatch, for example, and cod, which could be impacted by bottom-touching gear. It often is about fishing, and many forms of fishing are incompatible with many of the uses and objectives of MPAs, like rebuilding fish populations and protecting sensitive bottom habitats.
There was a question about recreational fishing. A lot of the strongly protected MPAs have zones that allow for recreational fishing, but the evidence has shown, for example, in New Zealand, that even light recreational fishing—not catch-and-release fishing, this is fish and take—does roll back some of the benefits that MPAs otherwise can offer. I've studied this myself, and there are many papers on this particular example from New Zealand, where you have side-by-side areas that are fished by recreational anglers and others that are not. You can see that the fished areas often are not distinguishable from areas that are not protected, which is surprising, but that's what the data shows us.
10 a.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Dr. Côté, you mentioned that you feel this committee, and I'm assuming the government, should aim higher than 10% protection. Can you elaborate a little about why you feel 10%...? I think you talked about 30%. How did you arrive at these figures? We heard that 10% was more of a political target, and it seems to be accepted, but 30% is something that you seem to be recommending. Why would you recommend one third?
10 a.m.
Prof. Isabelle Côté
There are a large number of studies. In my speaking notes, which I've sent to the clerk, I cite at least six different studies that have compiled various empirical or modelling studies that look at the proportion of the total ecosystem of the ocean that needs to be protected to recover fish populations. It's uncanny, all these studies point to between 20% and 40%. On average, all the values across those studies are about 30%.
A lot of evidence points to 30%. A long time ago, that was the target. That global target was eroded when it became clear that it would not be reached. We're now stuck with the 10%, which to be honest is meaningless. No evidence supports the 10%.
10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Dr. Côté. Sorry to interrupt.
Mr. Donnelly, if we reach Dr. Roberts, we'll put you back in for your extra three and a half minutes. If we do not reach him, since you get the last question in the second round, I'll add that time onto that. You are entitled to seven minutes.
Mr. Morrissey, you have seven minutes or less, please.
10 a.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
Dr. Worm, I assume you would be familiar with the MSC certification that refers to certified sustainable fisheries. This standard is now achieved in the lobster fishery in the gulf region of Atlantic Canada, which is one of the better-managed fish stocks in Canada, along with snow crab in the gulf region.
Do you see a contradiction between allowing certified fisheries that have achieved very rigorous standards for sustainability of the fishery being conducted in areas that would potentially be designated as an MPA?
