Evidence of meeting #65 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpas.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Mr. Crowley.
Thank you, Mr. Finnigan.
Mr. Arnold, you have five minutes, please.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's great to be here on World Oceans Day.
Mr. Sumaila, you mentioned that certain countries have reached their 10% goal of MPAs. I believe you mentioned that Palau has reached that goal. What was the main reason for the MPA, and has it affected their local food source?
9:50 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Actually, it hasn't impacted their local food source, because local, small-scale community fisheries still go on. It's the big industrial fishing they took out. They were simply catching the fish, shipping it out, and selling it to Japan and so on. That was that. They lost some revenue, but that is quickly being made up by the tourism value. It's amazing. People go there just to see the creatures. It's booming. I've been there. I've been on the boats and talked with business people who are starting in tourism activities and catching up.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
How are the people who used to have that for a food source now being fed?
9:50 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
You know, it's very funny, because the main industrial fishing was for tuna, and they weren't eating much of that at all.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
No, I don't mean the local food source. You mentioned the food that was being shipped to Japan. How are those people being fed?
9:50 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Oh, in Japan, yes, that's another question. They will probably go somewhere else or eat something else. These days we have a lot of sushi fixes and sushi stuff coming up, because tuna is going, and with California rolls and so on—I've been to Tokyo, and it's happening in Japan too—I've seen some of the evolution coming in.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
That food fish pressure has simply been shifted somewhere else.
9:50 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Somewhere else, and if it is less, it will go to places where the intensity for development can be high. If you go to beef instead of fish, then we're worse off, but if you move to vegetarian food or the California rolls of the world, then actually it's an improvement, yes.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
Dr. Leys, you mentioned that you were asked to take part in an expedition to explore new areas of interest around the sponge reefs that had been brought to attention. How were those additional areas first discovered before you went to map them out?
9:55 a.m.
Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, As an Individual
The reefs, fortunately, are opaque, or reflect sonar. Kim Conway at Natural Resources Canada originally discovered them by multibeam mapping, so it was for resource purposes that the whole coast was mapped. The technology with mapping changes the resolution of the sonar. The first maps he presented to Fisheries and Oceans showed so many reefs, and they kept becoming updated. The managers, I believe, saw the new areas and wondered if they were reefs. That's how they were identified. We had spots on a map that we had to go and check with a remote-operated vehicle.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Kuehnemund, in your brief to the environment committee, you said, “we need to ensure that protection is meaningful.” Can you define “meaningful”?
9:55 a.m.
Lead Specialist, Oceans Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
Absolutely. When we talk about meaningful protection, we mean having minimum standards for MPAs set in advance, and—
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Lead Specialist, Oceans Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
Well, I believe there's a great opportunity, with the amendments to the Oceans Act, for the Government of Canada to set and legislate standards through the Oceans Act in creating marine protected area regulations.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
But not necessarily meeting the international standards that seem to be set: no-take areas, large areas, and so on.
9:55 a.m.
Lead Specialist, Oceans Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
The IUCN has standards for marine protected areas and defines six categories of marine protected areas. Those categories include areas that can be used for multiple use, so it's not a given that all MPAs have to restrict all human activity.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Crowley, you were mentioning that harvest techniques and things have changed. I believe you said that maybe the lives of our indigenous peoples need to change or their way of life needs to change. Please correct me if I'm wrong. We were just in the north, and the MPAs that were created around Paulatuk and Tuktoyaktuk were created and requested by the local indigenous groups in an effort to maintain their beluga whale harvest. I'd like to hear your comments on that traditional harvest, that way of life which they say they simply can't live without.
9:55 a.m.
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
We are fully supportive of indigenous harvesting, as long as it's done in a way that is sustainable. The comments earlier were about what techniques could be used. I don't think we should expect the Inuit or indigenous people to use today the techniques that they used in the 1800s. Those techniques should evolve, and rifles should be used if they are the appropriate tool for that harvest. We are fully supportive of sustainable harvests by indigenous people.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Mr. Crowley.
Thank you, Mr. Arnold.
Birthday boy, you have five minutes, please—or, I should say, Mr. McDonald. My apologies.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses.
Dr. Sumaila, you talked about the economics of the ocean. For me, being from Newfoundland, the furthest easterly point, I lived through the cod moratorium. I see it every day, whether it's a fisheries issue, oil development, or whatnot. Everything is taking place almost simultaneously where I live, too. It's important in all aspects: the economy, local communities....
In looking at the economics of the ocean, do you take into account that the fishery has a certain value? The oil development that's taking place is basically in the ocean because the rigs are there. We're about to start a fourth one. It's on its way out now to start drilling to its oil find and to start producing very soon. Then there are the economics of the communities that are affected. Has it ever been all tied together to see the true value of each to the communities and to the country or province as a whole?
10 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Yes, there is an effort to study the total economic value of all the ecosystem services you get from a system. That will include the values you have enumerated. There's a lot of work currently ongoing. Before, we used to do fisheries alone and we'd do oil and gas alone. Now there is this push to do the whole thing.
My own partnership group has something called the OceanCanada Partnership, supported by SSHRC. It's a cross-country partnership of 20 private, academic, and government partners that are actually trying to do the same thing for the three ocean regions of Canada, trying to look at all the activities and calculate the economic value to the communities. That is ongoing from our side, but I know the other side is doing that.
It's very important to look at all of this. For example, we did a study that looked at fish value versus carbon sequestration value of the high seas. I'm going out of Canadian waters now. This is work I did together with Alex Rogers of Oxford. He did the science and I did the economics. What we found was that the carbon sequestration value is about 10 times the fish value of the high seas, for example. Those kinds of analyses are needed to help policy-makers like yourselves make sound economic decisions.
10 a.m.
Liberal
Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL
Looking at the fisheries-related economics, have you tried to draw the circle to the economics of aquaculture, whether it be open pens in salt water or land-based? If you have a fishery that's very important or the product is very important to feed people around the world because of the protein and everything else and if that fishery is dying or not able to take place anymore because of marine protected areas or for whatever reason, have you looked at the economic benefit of having an aquaculture industry in that particular species?
I know we do a lot of salmon aquaculture right now, but maybe halibut or things like that could replace the downsizing that takes place in many fisheries.
10 a.m.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
This is another interesting question.
There is a project that Simon Fraser University is leading and UBC is a partner, where we are looking at coho salmon, in particular, for exactly what you said. The cultures of coho have gone down to about 5% of what they used to be, only a few decades ago, and they have become endangered in some parts of the B.C. waters. This project is using genome technology to try to see how we can enhance the wild population, but also how we can help the local, sustainable, containment aquaculture of coho to help supplement the supply.
So, yes, there is. My group is there to do the economics, while they do the genome science, and we combine the two to do exactly what you're saying for coho, in particular. This can be expanded to other species, of course.