Evidence of meeting #69 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ships.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kevin Obermeyer  Chief Executive Officer, Pacific Pilotage Authority
Donna Spalding  Director, Administration, Cruise Lines International Association

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Good morning, everyone.

First of all, I'd like to apologize to our guests for the delay. We had an issue to deal with in committee business.

This is meeting 69 of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the Oceans Act's marine protected areas.

Before we start, I want to introduce our witnesses. They are both joining us by video conference from the west coast, so it's particularly early for them.

Good morning—I mean that in the truest sense of “good morning”—and thank you for joining us at this early hour.

Kevin Obermeyer is chief executive officer for the Pacific Pilotage Authority, and Donna Spalding is director of administration for the Cruise Lines International Association.

Normally we ask that you provide us with a statement of up to 10 minutes. You don't have to take the 10 minutes, but you certainly can discuss the issue at hand and why we invited you. We'll give you each time, then we'll go to a round of questioning from our members of Parliament representing three parties.

I'll call on Mr. Obermeyer first, please.

10 a.m.

Captain Kevin Obermeyer Chief Executive Officer, Pacific Pilotage Authority

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I'm pleased to have been asked to join you for a brief discussion this morning about the use of marine protected areas in the management and protection of Canada's west coast.

As brief background on who we are, the Pacific Pilotage Authority is a federal crown corporation tasked with providing a safe and efficient marine pilotage system on the west coast of Canada. We supply marine pilots to all vessels over 350 gross tonnes. A pilot's primary duty is to take the conduct of the vessel while in compulsory waters and bring it from open water to alongside a dock in a safe and efficient manner. Pilots see themselves as stewards of the environment, and always have the safety of the vessel and the protection of the environment foremost on their minds.

The compulsory pilotage area on the west coast of Canada extends from Washington state in the south to the Alaskan border in the north, and includes all the waters of the Salish Sea and the Inside Passage. Basically, as a rule of thumb, if you extend every major point of land on the west coast by about two miles and join them all together, that's our area of jurisdiction. I have supplied a chartlet with these opening notes. Hopefully the committee can see it.

The advantage of such a large jurisdiction is that we have to be consulted on all new projects or significant changes in operation. This gives us the opportunity to conduct risk assessments and/or simulations—firstly, to ensure that a particular project is feasible from a navigational safety perspective, and secondly, to put in place mitigators if the level of safety required is lacking in some areas.

Over the past several years, the authority has been involved either directly or indirectly in the Pacific north coast integrated management area, or PNCIMA, which everybody knows; in a number of marine partnership initiatives, otherwise known as MaPPs; in the Scott Islands wildlife protection area; and in the glass sponge reefs marine protected area, just to name a few. In addition, there has recently been a Parks Canada initiative to institute a national marine conservation area in the southern Gulf Islands and the Haro Strait area. We were not consulted on this initiative at all.

There is an increasing need for a holistic coastal management system that is open and transparent and that meets both the environmental needs and the goals of international and local trade. For several years now, we have seen a multitude of initiatives being put forward by various groups and departments with very little interaction and synergy between those groups and departments. We were therefore gratified to see that the ministers' mandate letters contained a directive to work together on a number of initiatives.

The Oceans Act refers to Canada's promotion of the “integrated management of oceans and marine resources”. To us, the key word in this is “integrated”. This is really the only way to manage the various competing interests and protect the ecosystems. In our view, integrated means managing the ecosystems as well as the various human activities in the area, which of necessity should include commercial shipping.

The protection of the coastal environment is extremely important, and will only be achieved if there is a balanced approach with all aspects, including Canada's need to trade and keeping gateways to our international markets open. The ports of Vancouver and Prince Rupert are the gateways to trade in Canada on the west coast and jointly handle more than 50% of the total trade in the country. As such, they need to be protected just as much as the pristine west coast environment. It is not as easy as some would think to relocate a transportation network.

Part of integrated management should mean conducting risk assessments on the marine traffic corridors, especially if there is pressure being brought to bear to move them as a result of the protection of a particular ecosystem. The assessment should include route planning that considers vessel manoeuvring characteristics, the nature of the geographic area, and the ability of vessels of a particular size to move safely in the new area. It should as well look at spill response planning and reaction times.

We fully expect that the oceans protection plan will include several new planning initiatives that will manage vessel movements, including the possible introduction of navigational corridors that take into consideration the concerns of coastal and indigenous communities.

In closing, I'd like to offer the following thoughts with regard to any marine protected areas under consideration.

First, any decisions to designate a particular area must be made based on factual scientific information, and not as a result of pressure by a particular community or interest group using the process for their own agenda.

Second, the use of technology should be embraced and utilized as a means of addressing specific issues of concern and for the protection of a species.

Third, we must ensure that the integrated management process is fully inclusive and addresses environmental concerns, indigenous and community concerns, as well as the need to ensure that Canada remains an international trading nation with access to the international market through the ports system.

Fourth, all relevant departments must work in an integrated manner in the planning process as soon as an area is considered for designation. There have been failures in the past as a result of federal departments operating in silos. While I do not believe this will happen again, given the various mandate letters, it needs to be kept in mind.

Last, I want to mention that the ports are vulnerable to U.S. competition now more than ever. Any deterioration in our level of service as a result of increased costs due to an MPA implementation could be utilized to erode the Canadian competitive advantage.

Thank you for the invitation to address you. I appreciate the opportunity.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We thank you very much, Mr. Obermeyer.

Now we go to Ms. Spalding from the Cruise Lines International Association.

Ms. Spalding, you have up to 10 minutes, please.

10:05 a.m.

Donna Spalding Director, Administration, Cruise Lines International Association

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for allowing me to address you this morning.

My comments are provided from the perspective of the member lines of the Cruise Lines International Association, and more specifically us here in Vancouver, where we manage, across Canada, North West & Canada. We represent the geographical areas of Canada, Alaska, Washington state, and Hawaii. In this role, we are afforded the opportunity for consultation and the ability to offer comment on a wide range of similar scenarios in various areas. Currently we have 13 member cruise companies, with 28 ships sailing on the west coast and 27 ships sailing on the east coast of Canada.

Collectively, the economic benefit of the cruise industry and its passengers was $3.2 billion in direct and indirect spending in Canada in 2016, providing 23,000 jobs and paying just over $1 billion in salaries and wages.

Protection of the environment, both coastal and ocean, is one of the most important considerations for the member lines of CLIA. They support the objective of cohesive planning and management approaches that protect important resources. This outlook goes hand in hand with the environmental objectives of our member lines, and ensures that their guests can enjoy and appreciate the beauty of the Canadian coast. The importance of recognizing the need for a balanced approach ensures a predictable and stable business environment, which is imperative as decisions and management plans are made and developed.

Within the current focus of western Canada, we have been involved in past consultations related to the MPA network objectives for the northern shelf bioregion. We recognize the importance of the goals to protect Canada's oceans, coasts, and waterways to ensure that they remain healthy and in place for future generations. Through these consultations, we have come to understand the objectives of the principles for developing and implementing a sustainable management plan, although at times in the past we have seen the process appear to be fractured and without synergy across relative departments.

Our member lines' policies and practices toward environmental regulation and stewardship meet and often exceed those of the regions they visit. The cruise lines have participated in the development of regulations with the Canadian federal government around the use of advanced technology in areas including recycling and solid waste management, waste-water treatment, and the use of low-sulphur fuels and emission purification systems to improve air emissions. This represents a small number of the initiatives employed by the cruise lines to protect the important ecosystems where they sail. We believe it is imperative that plans or decisions are based on factual scientific information, the availability of technology, and consideration of the challenges that the lack of this planning would bring to bear on the operations of our member lines.

We are encouraged by the coordinating objectives of the oceans protection plan, and see it as the opportunity to develop integrated, holistic coastal management plans that are open and transparent, bringing together a range of relevant stakeholders and governments to collaborate and develop practical and actionable plans. We believe the integrated management of oceans and marine resource planning, including marine protected areas, is an important initiative to manage sustainable human activity and conditions to support the continued economic benefit of the cruise industry in Canada.

I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to address you this morning. I look forward to any questions you might have.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Ms. Spalding, for that. We appreciate it.

We now go to our MPs, to my colleagues, to ask questions. They will each get seven minutes in the first round, followed by a round of five-minute questions. We'll go to the government side first, the Liberal Party.

Ms. Jordan, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Actually, Mr. Chair, I'm going to pass to Mr. Hardie first.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

All right.

Mr. Hardie, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you.

Thank you very much, and welcome. I hope the weather remains good out on the west coast. We had that nice downpour of rain there for a few days to lighten the load a little bit. I'll be on my way out on Friday to take in some things.

The intent of this study is to really examine the criteria for setting up a marine protected area. This is the essence of the motion that our colleague Mr. Arnold put forward a number of months ago. Looking at the world through your lens, what do you feel should be the criteria when government looks at setting up a marine protected area?

We'll start with you, Mr. Obermeyer.

10:10 a.m.

Capt Kevin Obermeyer

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

I think the criteria have already been laid out quite adequately. My concern is that they are not always followed. If it's going to be integrated and inclusive, I think it's going to be an extremely good process. But unfortunately in the past, even though those words were out there, they were not always followed, and the majority of the projects that we saw handled were handled in silos without any interaction between the various departments.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I'll come back to that point in a second.

Ms. Spalding, can you comment on just the general criteria, from your vantage point, that we should use when we're considering a marine protected area?

10:10 a.m.

Director, Administration, Cruise Lines International Association

Donna Spalding

I would echo what Kevin said, but I would add that it's very important when identifying a marine protected area and applying criteria to do that to ensure that we're using sound scientific data to identify the reason we're looking for a marine protected area, and at the same time the economic benefits and/or challenges. Important to our membership is that this has to be a predictable environment that allows them to continue their business. They set up their itineraries 18 months to two years in advance. If the sand shifts underneath them, so to speak, then those assets can be moved very quickly, and then we lose that business.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

To go back to the point you were making, Mr. Obermeyer, can you give us a more concrete example of something that happened for which there appeared to be disintegration of various government departments and interests?

10:10 a.m.

Capt Kevin Obermeyer

Absolutely.

A few years ago, we had huge success with the Asia-Pacific gateway, but at the same time, PNCIMA was being run by a different department. Initially PNCIMA did not involve any of the Transport Canada people. The result was that it came across the board to the marine industry as being very one-sided. While everyone understands and believes that protection of the environment is paramount, we can't forget about the fact that we are a trading nation and that the two need to be hand in hand.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

When we were visiting Prince Rupert a few months ago now and speaking with some of the interests there, I got the impression that there are not necessarily finite shipping lanes, per se, where the bulk of the traffic is going to go. That may be more a function of there being more open water up toward Prince Rupert, whereas going through the Inside Passage or the straits does tend to constrain your traffic.

Mr. Obermeyer, is there a well-managed shipping lane present in the south coast? And what do you see as the future pressures on that if trade continues to grow?

10:15 a.m.

Capt Kevin Obermeyer

There are actually two parts to that. The two parts are those vessels under marine pilots' care and those that are involved in the domestic trade, such as the tug and barge traffic. The larger vessels under pilotage do have specific shipping lanes that they tend to follow. That is not always the case with the domestic traffic with a shallower draft and the ability to move in many other areas.

We are presently working with the pilots group to actually formalize the traffic areas so that as you move forward through the MPAs, those can be presented and everybody will be able to see exactly where certain-sized vessels will be able to travel and where they won't be able to travel.

In Prince Rupert specifically, there are three traffic lanes that we use, but they are not formalized. They are not IMO approved as they are in the south.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

All right.

When we look at marine protected areas, certainly one of the things we think about is having zones, either across the entire area or at least in part of it, where there is no activity, period. In other cases, certain activities can take place, such as fishing at a certain depth, and certainly for the passage of larger vessels such as the ones you two represent.

Talk to me about the vessels. What is the age of the fleet right now? What technologies or advancements have come along, particularly with respect to noise, wake, and some of the other things, and even the use of depth sounding equipment? All of these factors could disturb populations like our southern resident killer whales and other groups. What is technology doing in your industries to reduce your footprint?

10:15 a.m.

Capt Kevin Obermeyer

The technology being used is going to go across the entire gambit, because we get some very old ships that are still safe and still meet all the requirements and transportation regulations, but they are not as technically advanced as some of Donna's cruise ships.

With respect to the noise, it will vary significantly from ship type to ship type. The cruise ships, as an example, have a lot of Azipod vessels. They are electrical and have smaller engines producing electricity that powers a podded system. It's much quieter than an older bulk carrier, with a very large single-propeller engine, coming in to pick up grain.

It will vary. Right now, there is a voluntary study going on in the Haro Strait area and the Georgia Strait where these things are being measured.

All of the industry has been participating at very high percentages to try to get a true sense of what we are dealing with.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Thank you, Mr. Obermeyer, for your intervention there.

Before we go to the opposition side, I want to welcome our guest Mark Holland.

I know that “Ajax” is in your riding title, but I forget the full title.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

It's just Ajax. That's it.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

My goodness. That's very good.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

It keeps it easy for you.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Yes, it is easy for me. You can always judge the value of the MP by the size of the riding name.

10:15 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

No offence.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

That hurts.