Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Miller. Sorry.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I just wondered if he could provide that study to the committee, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

In both official languages, Mr. Minister, are you able to provide the information that was requested?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Sure. We'd be happy to share that with the committee, Mr. Chair.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you very much. We appreciate you being here, both you and Mr. Beech, and of course Mr. Morel, Mr. Stringer, and Mr. MacDonald.

Of course you're sticking around, albeit not for a long time. Nevertheless, I suppose we could do one round.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Not a long time, but it could be a good time, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

That opens so many doors, Mr. Minister. I should probably leave it at that.

We're going to break for a minute or so to set up for the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Can I ask our witnesses to come back, please?

We have approximately 20 minutes. We can stretch it to a little more than that.

Thank you very much.

I want to introduce our three guests: Kevin Stringer, associate deputy minister; Philippe Morel, assistant deputy minister, aquatic ecosystems sector; and Jeff MacDonald, who is the director general, oceans and fisheries policy, whom we introduced earlier.

We afford all guests 10 minutes for an opening statement if you so require.

[Kevin Stringer, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

The minister read the opening statement. We'll be happy to continue with questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

We're trying to be overly generous. Nevertheless, we're going to start with our questions with Mr. Finnigan for seven minutes.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests for being here to answer questions. Some of them I would have liked the minister to answer, but of course time is limited.

I want to use the minister's opening remarks.

The Oceans Act…also was one of the first federal statutes to enshrine a non-derogation clause. Bill C-55 does not need to include provisions relating to indigenous rights and titles—this provision is already enshrined in the act and will stay that way.

Are we to infer, then, that indigenous communities will see no real change in terms of the rights they had previously?

Could you elaborate on that for us?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll start, and Jeff, you may want to add.

Section 2.1 of the Oceans Act says that “...nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights...”

I think this was one of the first examples of Canadian legislation to include that proviso, so that is already there. With respect to some of the indigenous groups, we are working on MOUs with them to ensure that their specific rights are addressed in how we move forward, but that general consideration is already in the Oceans Act of 1997.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you.

Also, when we're talking about interim protection, I want to have an idea of exactly how broad that can be. Could that be applied in an emergency situation? For instance, could that be applied in the deaths of all the whales this past summer? Could an MPA suddenly be applied there? Could other parts of the act come in, or is there a benefit in doing that?

[Kevin Stringer]

I think you could apply a suite of tools in that circumstance.

As you know, we've already taken a number of measures when it comes to whales. Certainly this is one you could do.

A big reason for wanting the interim protection is we now know from 20 years' experience that it takes around seven years to do a full MPA, because we have to do the economic analysis and the consultations. It's so very important to do all that. Some groups, ourselves included, have said that we can't wait that long and that we should at least provide some interim protection quickly by ministerial order while we're going through the broader consultation and the economic analysis, etc.

In other words, if there's something we know needs protection in the short term, let's give ourselves the tool to provide at least interim protection so that nothing else happens while we're working these things out. It is one such tool, but there are many other tools under the Fisheries Act, and under other legislation, to be able to do that. The Species at Risk Act, as well, has an emergency protection order as a possibility. This does provide one additional tool for short-term protection.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you.

Sometimes it's a bit confusing, because you have Parks Canada and others. Is there an overlap? How would MPAs go inland? Where would the overlap be?

For instance, talking about the Miramichi, whatever happens there eventually flows into the ocean. If ever there is an MPA in that area, how would that affect the—

[Kevin Stringer]

That's a really good question. We have many different tools for conservation. With respect to specific marine conservation areas, I'll just list a few of those tools.

We're talking about the Oceans Act, which establishes marine protected areas. The purpose of that is to protect biologically significant areas: species that need protection, corals and sponges, habitat, and so on.

The national marine conservation areas are Parks Canada. Parks Canada's objective is to establish 29 representative national marine conservation areas. Some people call them national parks.

Environment Canada has specific authorities to be able to establish national wildlife areas, and those can be done in marine areas as well.

One of our objectives in this proposed legislative change is marine protected area networks, or MPA networks. Now that we have a number of these MPAs, we want to be able to effectively bring together all those conservation measures done by the different jurisdictions, by the provinces and territories, by indigenous groups, and by others, with MPA networks on the Eastern Scotian Shelf and on the north part of B.C., and make sure that we're effectively applying all those measures together, identifying the gaps, and filling those gaps with the most appropriate measures. It is a complex thing.

You have Bill C-55, which does two things. One is its MPAs, which are a big part of this. The other is that it enables us to move forward on marine protected area networks, which brings all the players together to ensure that we are connecting all the tools.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I have a final question. The minister said that since our government has been in office, we've hired new scientists and we really want that information to be out there. We want to be able to question scientists. I think some of the people on board haven't gotten the message, because we still have a hard time when we request information or meetings. I don't know if it's a political wall or what it is.

I'm there to help, but even today I have a hard time accessing timely information and just communicating with that. In other words, we need that wall to come down.

[Kevin Stringer]

I hear what you're saying, and we will endeavour to do so.

We have had a very significant investment in science in the last two budgets. In the last, budget 2016, it was $40 million a year, which increased our science sector's budget by 22%. In terms of making sure that the information is available, we have taken important steps to be able to do that. I hear you saying we need to do more, and we will do that.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Given the time, folks, we're anticipating votes to be called in 10 minutes. Of course, those are just the 30-minute bells. The light you're seeing right now signifies that the House is just opening. They'll go off again in 10 minutes, and as the bells ring, we'll do one round of three questions. That's all we'll have time for.

In advance of that, however—and I'm probably overstepping my boundaries—I'm going to ask that our three witnesses, or at least representation from DFO, return to this committee. It's very important. We're dealing with some very important legislation, as I'm sure it all is. Nevertheless, I don't think just one round of questions to our experts here from DFO really will suffice.

I'm seeing agreement around the table, so we are inviting you back again for at least one more round. It will probably not be a full hour. It will be towards the end of our witness segment on this legislation so that we can talk to you again.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It could be earlier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Right, or whenever. When we would do it is up to you; I'm just saying we should.

Go ahead, Mr. Doherty, please, for seven minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests.

Mr. Stringer, I want to go further on Mr. Finnigan's question in terms of inland areas and other protective measures. Is it your testimony today that inland fishery closures would also contribute to marine protected area plans?

[Kevin Stringer]

I don't think inland would contribute to the 10% targets, but we do link up the oceans protection with inland protection as well, particularly in the coastal zone.

The Fisheries Act deals generally more with inland areas and the Oceans Act deals with oceans. We need to make sure that those are linked up as well.