Evidence of meeting #77 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was oceans.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Crowley  Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
John Helin  Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band
Nikki Macdonald  Ph.D. Candidate, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Bill Wareham  Science Projects Manager, Western Region, David Suzuki Foundation

November 21st, 2017 / 8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Good morning, everybody.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 17, we are considering Bill C-55, an act to amend the Oceans Act and the Canada Petroleum Resources Act. Here we are at committee, after the passage of second reading, and onwards and upwards we go.

To our witnesses, thank you for being with us. I'm not sure if you're on the west coast or not, but if you are, welcome to the early morning hours.

Welcome to Paul Crowley, vice-president of the Arctic program of World Wildlife Fund Canada—it's good to see you again, sir—and Mark Brooks, Arctic oil and gas specialist, also from World Wildlife Fund Canada.

From the Lax Kw'alaams Band we have Mayor John Helin. Thank you very much, Your Worship, for joining us here today.

As well, welcome to Dean Allison, our colleague from Niagara West. It's nice to see you this morning, Dean. Thanks for joining us.

We have up to 10 minutes to hear from each group.

Mr. Crowley, go ahead, sir. Thank you.

8:45 a.m.

Paul Crowley Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Thank you.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the invitation. I just want to start by acknowledging that the work you're doing is critically important to ensuring that Canada has the necessary laws and policies in place to protect the health of our oceans. We have submitted written comments, which I trust you've received.

Just quickly, I'm sure you're familiar with the World Wildlife Fund. We're one of the largest independent conservation organizations in the world. We have projects in 100 countries. WWF-Canada creates solutions to the environmental challenges that matter most to Canadians. We work in places that are unique and ecologically important so that wildlife, nature, and people thrive together.

With respect to our marine conservation work, WWF-Canada believes healthy oceans depend on a network of marine protected areas that account for ocean currents, species migration, and other ecological connections. We are working in partnership with coastal communities, indigenous peoples, and groups to advocate for MPAs and sustainable oceans management. WWF is pushing to have stronger conservation standards, including better management, and to exclude industrial activities, oil and gas, and mining within MPA boundaries.

I would like to begin by emphasizing the position of our organization on the need for modernizing the laws governing environmental protection of our oceans, including the need to review and reform the rules governing offshore oil and gas activities, which have not been substantially updated in decades and which, certainly in the Arctic, tend to favour industrial development at the expense of other alternatives.

With regard to Bill C-55, WWF-Canada does support the proposed amendments to the Oceans Act and the Canada Petroleum Resources Act in favour of expediting the MPA designation process, and we commend the government for its ambitious conservation targets. We agree that the process to establish new MPAs in Canada is much too long. The proposed legislation should help expedite this process.

Marine protection designation must be meaningful, however. Bill C-55 is a step in the right direction but it will not ensure that new MPAs in Canada effectively protect marine biodiversity. Setting an ambitious conservation target is commendable, yet the government must also do the right thing to ensure that marine protection is meaningful and effective.

WWF-Canada believes the goal of all of Canada's environmental legislation should be to modernize the Canadian economy to meet the sustainability challenges of the 21st century. To effectively meet this goal, a set of unifying objectives should be followed.

First, maintain and restore vital ecological goods and services upon which communities and species depend. Uphold Canada's international climate commitments and decarbonize energy production and consumption. Uphold the rights of indigenous peoples to access to and stewardship of our natural wealth including the crown's duty to consult. Finally, uphold the right to a healthy environment.

With regard to the Oceans Act amendments, the proposed Oceans Act and CPRA amendments will streamline the process of creating new MPAs. However, the absence of minimum standards for MPAs that would include prohibitions on certain activities is a significant shortcoming. Lack of minimum standards for MPAs leads to weaker protection and uncertainty if restrictions must be determined on a site-by-site basis.

Industrial activities are not permitted in terrestrial parks. We need the same level of protection for our marine protected areas. Minimum standards must include prohibitions on oil and gas and mineral exploration and development, bottom trawling, open-net pen aquaculture, tidal power development, and wind farms.

Subject to indigenous rights in Canada, minimum standards should also include a requirement for significant no-take zones that are closed to all extractive activities but that would not preclude low-impact fishing, ecotourism, and recreation activities as well as marine transportation.

Our Oceans Act does not explicitly recognize indigenous protected areas declared under indigenous law and has insufficient provisions to allow meaningful ocean co-governance. The Oceans Act must be amended to recognize indigenous law for all indigenous groups to achieve food security, allow for sustainable livelihoods, recognize IPAs—indigenous protected areas—and achieve meaningful oceans co-governance.

Finally, the ongoing activities exception in the bill when a new MPA is given interim protection is overly broad. In some cases, it may not be clear whether an activity will be prohibited or allowed once interim protection is given.

With regard to the CPRA, the Canada Petroleum Resources Act, it needs to be amended, and the fact that it needs to be amended demonstrates a fundamental weakness in this legislation. The CPRA is over 30 years old, and its guiding policy focuses almost exclusively on expediting the development of petroleum resources at the expense of other possible alternatives, such as marine conservation. Full modernization of the CPRA, along with the entire oil and gas regulatory regime, is long overdue.

For now, the three following amendments to the CPRA could be implemented through Bill C-55 to help balance conservation priorities with industrial development.

First, ensure the provision allowing for cancellation of oil and gas interests applies to all permits and is not limited only for the purposes of MPA designation. The revocation of a licence must also be permitted if unexercised rights interfere with the public good. Next, add a guiding policy section or preamble that explicitly sets out the policy intention of the legislation within the context of important contemporary issues, such as marine conservation. As well, include a statutory requirement to conduct an environmental assessment before an exploration licence is granted to a company.

With respect to Bill C-55 amendments specifically, it should be noted that the CPRA does not apply to the Atlantic accord areas. Regulatory solutions therefore need to be considered for the accord areas in the same context as the CPRA amendment to ensure the ability to restrict oil and gas from MPAs, and therefore would be applied Canada-wide.

In addition, when an interim MPA is to be designated, the minister will be given discretionary powers to prohibit oil and gas activities and/or cancel a company's interest. This should be a mandatory—not discretionary—prohibition.

As noted, Bill C-55 must also allow for the cancellation of all oil and gas interests in areas where MPAs are designated, including permits that are subject to boundary disputes and/or prohibition orders, some of which have been held for decades. If not, these licences could remain an impediment to MPA designation in the future.

With regard to the public review of of Canada's offshore oil and gas regulatory regime, in the Arctic offshore, where CPRA rules apply, Canada's oil and gas regime consists of multiple pieces of legislation. The government completed a review of the CPRA last year and is currently carrying out a review of CEAA, the National Energy Board modernization review, and the frontier and offshore regulatory renewal initiative, yet it's not clear how all of these various reviews are connected, if at all.

A comprehensive public review of the entire regulatory regime governing oil and gas development in Canada's offshore Arctic areas is required. This review should consider how the various pieces of legislation work together and which elements should be improved or modernized.

Oil and gas development, particularly in the Arctic, is only one outcome amongst a number of possible alternatives and should not be seen in isolation from other priorities. Fully modernizing the regulatory regime will help ensure that the priorities and concerns of Canadians are adequately considered if new licences for oil and gas activity in Canada's offshore Arctic waters are issued by any government at some point in the future.

To bring us to a conclusion, I will say that Bill C-55 is a step in the right direction, but it will not ensure that MPAs in Canada effectively protect marine biodiversity. We encourage the government to take this rare opportunity to consider further amendments to both the CPRA and the Oceans Act, which are necessary to ensure that both are fully modernized and updated to reflect contemporary sustainability challenges.

Thank you again for your invitation.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Crowley.

Mayor Helin, before we get to you, we did meet with your band when we were in Prince Rupert. I don't think you were there at the time, but it's good to welcome you back officially once again. That was about marine protected areas. Similarly, we're on Bill C-55. It's good to have you back, sir.

You're up for 10 minutes or less, please.

8:55 a.m.

John Helin Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band

Thank you.

I thank the committee for allowing me to speak before it here today. I think it's important that I travelled all the way from northwestern B.C. to Ottawa, because I feel that we're left out on the northwest coast of B.C. I say that because a lot of policies and regulations have been put in place without our input. You talk about informed consent, and there are some buzzwords we keep hearing. I'll point to the Great Bear Rainforest that was put in place without a lot of consultation with our members.

I was out here a few days ago speaking before the standing committee on the tanker moratorium. I found out that you have an Atlantic fishery fund for the east coast of the country. My community, which has over 3,800 members, has the biggest gillnet fishing fleet on the B.C. coast. We can't afford to put fuel in those boats because we don't get the fishing time. We don't have the ability to get the quotas that are worth money from the halibut, the geoduck, and all those fisheries that people make good money from when they fish them. Our members don't have access to them.

All the plans that were put in place in the past, like the Mifflin plan and all these fisheries plans that were going to improve how we access the fish on the coast, are just not working. We went through a court procedure with the government a few years ago and lost. Through that court procedure, DFO enforcement started a program called “Operation Laundry List”, through which they targeted our fishermen on the fishing grounds. It's frustrating when I have to write to the Prime Minister and the fisheries minister and say that we're being racially profiled on the coast because we lost that fisheries case. And it's real. A few days ago I met with RDG Rebecca Reid in Prince Rupert. Hopefully we are turning the page on the ugly past that we share. How do we improve that?

There's a PICFI plan in place. I met with Minister LeBlanc here last year. He said we were the poster child of that program. We were following all the guidelines and doing what we were supposed to do. Then we found out that some of the quota we could have gotten went to other bands, and that when they get it, all they do is flip it to non-native fishermen. We have the biggest fishing fleet on the coast, and we don't have that access.

There are a lot of problems. I'm here to point them out, but I'm also here to work with the necessary people to improve.... Our members have been living there for thousands of years. You talk about looking after the ocean. That's what we do. The environment is always first, but we should be allowed to make a decent living in our territory. We've done it for years on fish resources as well as on forestry. It's important that I bring this message to Ottawa . It's frustrating for me to come out here and talk to people, and then go away and not be heard from again.

I met with Minister Tootoo when he was the minister, Minister LeBlanc, and a whole bunch of ministers on LNG and on some other issues that we were dealing with. To have NGOs come into our traditional territory and divide us.... I'll just mention that because of what happened with LNG out there. People come into our territories and spread false information, and it's a hard job for me to go to our membership and correct that, through meetings that I have to hold. But they have to get the real story, not the stuff that is disseminated by some of the groups that don't want to see things progress in our area. It's very frustrating.

We hear about the Atlantic fishery fund. When I go to a lot of our docks in B.C. and see how we're.... There are some improvements, but look at east coast Canada. The docks they have compared to what we have on the west coast show how we're treated out there. I'm here to make some noise and say that I don't like being treated like that, especially when we have the biggest fishing fleet in B.C., a gillnet fleet, and we can't make a living.

People are desperate. Some of our elders have to make a choice between hydro and food, and that's a reality in Canada in my community.

I come here with that message. How do we improve that? Policies and regulations are made in Ottawa, and hopefully you'll come to meet with us and understand who we are so we work together to improve those situations.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mayor Helin.

We're now going to our questions, but before we do, there are just a couple of things to point out.

Over the next little while, colleagues, and this is just a suggestion on my part.... If you recall, a few meetings ago, we passed a motion to incorporate testimony from MPAs into this study of Bill C-55, where we spoke to bands such as those on the west coast. It occurred to Thai, our analyst, that it would be helpful if we could convert or take some of the testimony here and put it into our MPA study as well, so the flip of that.

Have a think about that, because we need a motion to do that, and we can't do it in public, of course, unless we have 48 hours' notice. Would anybody like to bring forward a motion to have evidence from this testimony regarding Bill C-55 included with our MPA study down the road in the next few months? It was his idea, not mine.

Okay, folks, now we go to our questions.

Mr. Hardie, you have seven minutes, please.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the people who are here.

John, you and I sat across the table talking about the tanker moratorium on the other committee that I sit on. Just for the purposes of this group, can you quickly give us your take on the tanker moratorium, where you sit on that, and the reasons?

9:05 a.m.

Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band

John Helin

I think I am of the mind that we should be consulted in a meaningful fashion when decisions like that are made.

I know I did meet with Minister Garneau. Somebody said we met 50 times or something over the previous two years, but only two of those meetings were on the tanker moratorium.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Do you support the tanker moratorium?

9:05 a.m.

Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band

John Helin

I support our looking after the environment, looking at any project that comes along, whether it's oil or gas, and making a decision based on science and fact. I think the opportunity for us in northern B.C. for a pipeline for oil is real.

The reason I say that is that when I sat in this chair I was with Eagle Spirit Energy, where we went from Alberta to my community on the coast, and got all those bands on board for that energy corridor. I think they should have an opportunity to look at proposed projects to see if we can benefit from them.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, John.

Mr. Crowley and Mr. Brooks, with reference to how you came to your position and your recommendations, I'm going to ask some devil's advocate questions of you.

Did you spend some time up in the north? Did you spend some time speaking with indigenous bands and coming up with the recommendations you have offered here?

9:05 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

I'm based in the north, so I speak with northerners and Inuit every day when I'm in the north. I've been based in the north since 1995, and since joining WWF three years ago, we have an office in Iqaluit and also in Inuvik. We also work in Labrador and in other parts of Newfoundland claim areas.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I understand that part, but did you talk to them specifically about the recommendations you have for amendments?

9:05 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

We have engaged with communities on a number of issues, including MPAs, and on Bill C-55 as well. I have had some discussions with Inuit organizations about these issues.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

When you talk about unifying objectives in consultation with indigenous groups, particularly as an advocacy group, you have the freedom to take a very firm position at either extreme, but at the same time, you're trying to influence government. I guess the question is this. When we hear what you have to say, does it reflect a consensus or does it really reflect, as I said, an advocacy position that you want to establish very strongly?

9:05 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

In my experience, and in recent consultations that I have attended—that includes consultations on the Nunavut land use plan; consultations on the Pikialasorsuaq, the North Water Polynya; as well as consultations with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the creation of MPAs—the desire for conservation in the north is strong. There is no place where I think it could be considered stronger. At the Nunavut land use planning hearings, from the Baffin region there were representatives from each community, and each person representing their community spoke about the desire for further conservation.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

We heard the same thing when this committee went up north.

I am not aware of any petroleum extraction activities going on up in the Arctic. Are you?

9:05 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

Currently, there are not. As some committee members may know, there was a desire to do seismic, which the community of Clyde River took exception to and went to the Supreme Court of Canada to defend its right to be consulted appropriately. In the eastern Arctic, over the last decade, there have been applications for seismic activity and seismic research, and the communities have opposed them vehemently.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

John, with respect to sustainable fishing practices, you mentioned that you have probably the largest gillnet fleet on the coast. Are you aware that if, for instance, you are currently gillnetting in a particular area, even if it is designated as an area of interest, you would be able to continue to do that if the minister exercised the authorities this bill would provide? Are you aware of that?

9:10 a.m.

Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band

John Helin

I am not aware of the particulars. I am aware of some of the conservation areas they have in place already. One of our main fishing places was around Dundas Island. We are completely shut out of that area now, and it's filled with sport fishermen. They are allowed to go and fish in an area where we can't for commercial purposes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Crowley or Mr. Brooks, you can answer this. If the minister establishes an area for a five-year period, the intention is to allow whatever has been going on, at least in the previous 12 months, to continue. Do you have any thoughts or concerns about that?

9:10 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

Yes. As stated in the testimony earlier, when it comes to industrial activities, such as oil and gas, we believe they are just not compatible and they should stop. They should not continue in that—

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Is it just that, or are there fishing practices that you would not agree with?

9:10 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

Yes. In addition, we would like to see prohibited bottom trawling, open-net pen aquaculture, tidal power development, and wind farms. There should be no-take zones considered in those areas as well, eventually, when they are turned into marine protected areas.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

What would you say to John, then, and his big fishing fleet?

9:10 a.m.

Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada

Paul Crowley

Pardon me?