Evidence of meeting #80 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpas.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Natalie Ban  Associate Professor, School of Environmental Studies, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Rodolphe Devillers  Professor, Department of Geography, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Boris Worm  Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
Marilyn Slett  Chief Councillor, Heiltsuk Tribal Council
Peter Lantin  President, Council of the Haida Nation

9:40 a.m.

Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Boris Worm

I think that's an excellent question, and as I said, I'm studying this in collaboration with DFO because everybody recognizes this problem. It's a problem we haven't scientifically solved, per se. I will point out that only some assets will move. Others will stay the same. For example, the Gully Marine Protected Area is an underwater canyon that will not move in a million years, so we were fine protecting that. There are certain habitat structures that will stay in place, but then, you're absolutely right, others will move. Industry recognizes this as well. It's adapting to this in a flexible manner. We're currently studying how it can adapt, how the fish species that we're studying adapt themselves, and then how we can build contingency into the system.

There's no appetite in DFO and internationally to make MPAs flexible in a way that the boundaries of the MPA move, so I think we'll have to work with static MPAs and buffer zones or other management tools, such as flexible critical-habitat designations that are moveable. I will point out that there's also a governance challenge here because some of these changes can happen very rapidly.

A very poignant example is the movement within a year of almost the entire right whale population on the east coast in the Bay of Fundy to the Gulf of St. Lawrence. In the Bay of Fundy they're well protected, but in the Gulf of St. Lawrence they're not. There were catastrophic consequences this year for that population. Governance has to react to these very rapid changes that we're now seeing on the water. It's the same on land, of course, but in the water it's particularly visible these days. A planning process needs tools to account for that, and those tools are currently being developed here and elsewhere.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

A few of you mentioned sufficient funding. I'm not really sure how you put that in legislation because what we're doing right now is looking at Bill C-55. If you talk in terms of programs, you have to have the proper resources to fund what you're putting in the legislation, so putting funding in legislation is very difficult to do. I just wanted to make that point because I don't think you can actually put in legislation and designate certain programs without actually having the proper resources for it. That's just a point.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you.

Conservatives, I only have about three minutes here if you want to chime in.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Devillers, you mentioned a number of issues pertaining to the rationale of why the cod stock is not coming back, but I didn't hear you say predation. Was that an oversight, or did you actually mean that predation is not preventing the replenishment of the cod stocks?

9:45 a.m.

Prof. Rodolphe Devillers

Again, I'm not an aquatic biologist. I can't quantify the cod predation. This is a factor that has been mentioned. It has been studied. What I know is that there are different arguments for and against, so I do understand that it's part of the problem. It's part of the reason why cod are not recovering, but I certainly do not, as an expert in conservation, think that is the main driver.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

You also mentioned that 83% of species have shown decline in the last number of years. Could you give us a breakdown on whether those are benthic species, pelagic species, mammals, fish stocks, or shellfish? I think a little bit more quantified information might be helpful for the committee.

Do you have that level of detail for that information?

9:45 a.m.

Prof. Rodolphe Devillers

I don't have those numbers, but I can clarify. The 80% decrease was for.... In Canada, we have a number of terrestrial and marine species, and 50%, more or less, of them have shown a decrease. Amongst those, there was a decrease of 83% on average.

That's the summary finding of a report from the World Wildlife Fund published in 2017. This report—I read it a few weeks ago—provides detailed statistics per region and per type of species. For instance, I believe that for fisheries on the east coast and that region it was about a 47% or something decrease. I cannot provide the exact numbers as I don't have the report with me, but those numbers exist.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

We can find them as well.

The next question is for all three of you. Answer quickly if you can. How satisfied are you with the designation of the ecozones that are broadly accepted either by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans or by other members of the scientific community? In your opinion, is Canada's outline of marine ecozones adequate?

Dr. Ban.

9:45 a.m.

Associate Professor, School of Environmental Studies, University of Victoria, As an Individual

Dr. Natalie Ban

As far as I'm aware, they're fine. I haven't heard any arguments that counter them, but it's not an issue that I've looked at in any detail.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Dr. Worm, go ahead.

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Boris Worm

I've been following the planning process strictly here on the east coast. I'm not aware of the planning process on the west coast. I will say this is about 15 years of work, taking into account more than 100 layers of biological and socio-economic information.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

A quick yes or no would be really helpful. I know you guys know what.... I'm just looking for a quick yes or no. Are you generally satisfied that the...?

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Boris Worm

Yes, I am.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Okay.

Mr. Devillers, what about you?

9:45 a.m.

Prof. Rodolphe Devillers

I'm satisfied with the ecozones at the national level. I'm not that satisfied with the ecozones within each region of DFO.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

This is just a quick follow up to that. Do you believe when the 10% target is reached for the marine protected areas that it should be divided up among the ecozones as they exist now, making sure that 10% of each ecozone is reflected in the protection?

9:45 a.m.

Associate Professor, School of Environmental Studies, University of Victoria, As an Individual

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Okay.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Dr. Worm and Dr. Devillers, do you want to make a very quick comment on that?

Dr. Worm, go ahead.

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Boris Worm

I think representation is important and any marine-protected area network that tries to insure all the assets we have needs to be represented and stretched across the ecozones. Yes.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

I only had a slight amount of time. Thank you very much. I appreciate your answers.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Okay, folks. That ends it right there.

Dr. Worm, Dr. Ban, and Dr. Devillers, I want to thank you so much.

Very quickly, go ahead, Ms. Jordan.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Dr. Worm, could you pass our congratulations on to Dr. Hutchings on his win for the Huntsman award, please?

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Boris Worm

I will do that very gladly.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

On behalf of all of us, please pass on our congratulations to Dr. Hutchings

We'll be back in a few minutes after a very short break. As soon as we get our guests on video conference, we're going to start right away.

Thank you again to our witnesses.