Fisheries Committee on Dec. 7th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Okay.

I see no further discussion.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We now go to NDP-5.

Mr. Donnelly, go ahead.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Do I feel lucky, Mr. Chair?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I think the answer is no.

I appreciate my colleague, Ms. May, for withdrawing her amendment. It is exactly the same as mine, I think. Earlier we did approve Mr. Tootoo's amendment, which I definitely support.

This also provides appropriate recognition of indigenous-governed areas and provides stronger support for co-governance. The Oceans Act should reflect the federal government's commitments to implementing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and working in true government-to-government relationships with Canada's indigenous people, consistent with the Canadian Constitution.

We've had that discussion. I appreciate, again, my colleague for withdrawing her motion. I think the motion stands. It's there. I'm not sure everyone wants me to read it; in fact, I'm sure they don't.

I do want to point out the importance of the role the guardians play in there and impress on the government members to consider this, and I'll see if I am lucky or not shortly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Mr. Donnelly has put out the beacon for some luck. Therefore, shall NDP-5 carry?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

There goes your trip to Vegas, sir.

That was quite a long clause, now, wasn't it?

That concludes clause 5.

Shall clause 5 as amended carry?

(Clause 5 as amended agreed to)

(On clause 6)

On CPC-12, Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, this would, again, go to the testimony we heard time and again that the consultation process has been less than stellar. I guess it could be argued that—and I heard it earlier today—at what amount do we say there has been enough consultation. I think the problem was can we please everybody? I'm not quite sure we can, but we need to make sure we're doing our due diligence in every facet of review.

What we are suggesting here is that consensus is required for an MPA to be accepted by as many stakeholders as possible, and therefore sustainable. As the federal strategy states:

The concept of consultation and collaboration is essential to the development and implementation of the federal marine protected areas network and its individual components – its success depends on how well various interests are able to work together.

What we are suggesting, Mr. Chair, is that clause 6 be amended by adding, after line 22 on page 4, the following:

(4.1) The Minister, before making a recommendation under subsection (1), shall (a) consult with other ministers, boards and agencies of the Government of Canada, as well as with any provincial governments, persons or bodies that the Minister considers to be interested in the matter; (b) ensure that any scientific or socio-economic review of the area has been conducted; and (c) publish, on the departmental website for a period of at least one year before the recommendation is given, the proposed designation, including the boundaries and any activities, prohibitions and exemptions proposed to be set under section 35.1.

This, Mr. Chair, is all in the spirit of consultation and accountability.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Shall CPC-12 carry?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Can we get a recorded vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

A recorded vote is called on CPC-12.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)

(Clause 6 agreed to)

(Clauses 7 to 9 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 10)

We now go to amendment CPC-13.

Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, our amendment is solely to ensure that it seeks to strike the words “or preventing non-compliance”.

The act will read currently as it sits on page 5 under the title “Inspections 39.11 for the purpose related to verifying compliance”, and as it currently reads “or preventing non-compliance”. We are suggesting to amend that, and strike the words “or preventing non-compliance”.

The concern we have is, at what level and what steps does that entail in terms of preventing non-compliance with respect to marine protected areas or interim protected areas?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Shall the amendment carry?

(Amendment negatived)

Next is CPC-14.

Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, this amendment is solely to ensure that if DFO requires copies of documents, log books, or electronic data, the owner of such data, meaning the fishers or the organizations, shall be reimbursed for any costs incurred in trying to prove that they have not committed any offence under this act.

All we're asking is that Bill C-55 in clause 10 be amended by replacing line 38 on page 5 with the following:

record, electronic data or other document, and the owner of the copying equipment shall be reimbursed for the copying costs.

We heard through testimony that during investigations, DFO may enter an organization or a business, and proceed with using that organization's equipment to fulfill their own investigation, and in some cases, the owners, the organizations, incurred costs. We wish to protect stakeholders. If they are being investigated, and DFO enters their premises, any costs incurred shall be borne by DFO, not by the stakeholders.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Doherty.

On analysis of this, the amendment, as you point out, causes owners of copying equipment to be reimbursed for copying costs in certain instances. If you turn to the book House of Commons Procedure and Practice, or O'Brien and Bosc, as we commonly call it, it states on page 767:

Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.

It is the opinion of the chair that the reimbursement of copying costs would impose a new charge on the public treasury. Therefore, I have to rule this amendment inadmissible.

Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Just to be clear, Mr. Chair, is it your opinion that any costs of that investigation shall be borne by the organization or the stakeholder?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

My opinion is pertaining to the Standing Orders, which dictate that we as a committee cannot infringe upon the public treasury to spend more money. That is why it is inadmissible. I do not mean to say that someone should be or should not be bearing the cost of that. It's just a question of inadmissibility according to the Standing Orders.

Mr. Miller.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't disagree with your interpretation of the way it reads. However, I would ask for clarification from the officials. If DFO staff, in the example that Mr. Doherty suggested, walk into any business that they're investigating and unilaterally use their equipment, if they do have that right, I would suggest that it's terribly wrong. Could I get a response to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

No, that's allowable.

Go ahead, Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Goetze.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, we're out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Officially, we have this room until 12:45.

Do you want me to tell you how many votes we have left?

[A voice]

It's five.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Yes, it's something like that.

Go ahead, Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Chair, we've extended the meeting twice. We've had two 30-minute extensions. You're proposing a third 30-minute extension. I was hoping we would get this done within the two.

I've cut into an hour of tabling at the AFN. Could I recommend that we do another 15 minutes? That way I could still have some time to connect with the Assembly of First Nations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Let's see how this goes. We'll extend for 15 minutes and then see where we are. How's that?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

All right.

Mr. Goetze.