Evidence of meeting #95 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)
Churence Rogers  Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.
Philippe Morel  Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Darren Goetze  Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Adam Burns  Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Nicholas Winfield  Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mark Waddell  Acting Director General, Fisheries and Licence Policy, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

10 a.m.

Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Darren Goetze

Sorry, I cannot off the top of my head.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Could you provide that to me?

10 a.m.

Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Darren Goetze

I'll attempt to do so, yes.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thanks.

10 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

Mr. Arnold, please, you have seven minutes.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I was hoping to get to some of these questions while we still had the minister here, but I will direct my questions to the assistant deputy minister.

Mr. Morel, last week, there was a major court decision by the Supreme Court of British Columbia with the Nuu-chah-nulth first nations on the west coast of B.C.

Have you studied that 400-page decision and referenced it to how it may impact this bill?

10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Philippe Morel

Of course, there are many people in the department who are studying the Ahousaht decision. It's a very important decision on how we will manage the fisheries and also our relationship with indigenous people. We are looking at all the impacts, but right now I don't have an analysis of how this decision will impact the Fisheries Act.

More from the fisheries management perspective, I don't know, Adam, if you wish to respond. We are at the same place, so we're studying it right now. We're still in the period of a potential appeal, but we're not waiting for that to look at the decision. It is very complex and detailed, but a very useful decision for us. We will look at it and see if there's some adjustment needed.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

We still don't know if that decision may impact this act. We are here today to study the act, possibly make amendments to it, and send it back to the House, yet you haven't finished analyzing the court decision to see whether it's going to impact the bill in any work we're doing.

10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Philippe Morel

We have a court decision every week that impacts DFO's operations, so we always take into consideration the decisions made by courts and we adapt. Even in the Fisheries Act, there are some amendments that we call “housekeeping” because they incorporate some changes that were required by previous court decisions. When we have that opportunity, we do adjust. Right now, if we need to adjust, we will see what we need to do in the short term, but I don't think we should wait to proceed with the Fisheries Act.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Do you have an estimated time frame for when you will finish reviewing the Nuu-chah-nulth or Ahousaht decision?

10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Philippe Morel

We don't have a precise one, but we're on it right now.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

I see this release from the minister saying, “As an immediate step, I have directed Fisheries and Oceans Canada to review the Pacific Salmon Allocation Policy. We will work in collaboration with Indigenous groups and all stakeholders to renew and co-develop this policy.”

Looking at the managing factors in that allocation policy, the first concern is conservation. The second is first nations, I believe, concerning food, social, and ceremonial uses. Third is common property resource. Fourth is recreational allocation. Fifth is commercial allocation. Sixth is selected fisheries, and seventh is other allocations.

Where will the Ahousaht or Nuu-chah-nulth decision place those commercial fisheries on that list of priorities?

10:05 a.m.

Adam Burns Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

To answer your question, I wouldn't want to prejudge the outcome of the review of that. I think the court spoke clearly to the fact that the salmon allocation policy did need to be changed, but in terms of what the resulting policy would say, I wouldn't want to speak to that.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Why did it say it needed to be changed? Can you be a little more specific?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

Unfortunately, I don't have the court ruling in front of me, so I'm working from my recollection of the ruling, but I think it spoke to the priority structure of allocations within the policy and the fact that for certain—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

That was the list I just gave you, so I'm asking what specifically it said is not right.

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

I think it was the priority to recreational fishing for certain species over indigenous access. Again, I'm saying it based on recollection, but I think that was the general observation of the court. The department will be working with all those stakeholder groups you identified to—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Are you indicating that a commercial indigenous fishery may supersede a recreational or a public fishery?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

Again, I wouldn't want to prejudge the outcome of that work. As the minister said, the department is working with indigenous communities, stakeholders—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Does that appear to be what may be needed?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

I wouldn't want to speculate on what the outcome of the review will result in.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Another piece I have here is a review from a legal review paper stating that the changes to the Fisheries Act would be a “bonanza for lawyers who advise on environmental and other regulatory matters” because of the uncertainty that's being created here. Can you comment on that?

You must have seen that report. It came out February 7, 2018, in The Lawyer's Daily. It said, “Bill C-68 introduced by the Trudeau government on Feb. 6 would also create a bit of a bonanza for lawyers who advise on environmental and other regulatory matters.”

10:05 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Philippe Morel

I haven't seen that particular legal advice, so it's a difficult for me to say what it is. Certainly one of the objectives of the modification was to bring certainty to investors and proponents and clarity for other stakeholders in how we manage fisheries. Is that referring to the way we manage major projects, or is it referring to fisheries allocation? I don't know. It's difficult for me to comment.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Again, your opinion seems to differ from those of lawyers, and I'll stick with a lawyer's legal opinion.

10:05 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Donnelly, please, you have seven minutes.