Evidence of meeting #95 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)
Churence Rogers  Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.
Philippe Morel  Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Darren Goetze  Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Adam Burns  Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Nicholas Winfield  Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mark Waddell  Acting Director General, Fisheries and Licence Policy, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

So look at it. That's what we're asking.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I didn't interrupt your question. I don't know why you would interrupt the answer.

I would point out that the codes of practice are precisely the best way to resolve some of the smaller-scale infrastructure projects. If this committee and Parliament ultimately support this legislation, the codes of practice that we're proposing will remove the very heavy bureaucratic and regulatory process that necessarily must take place with respect to the more significant—in terms of environmental impact, fish habitat, and so on—projects. What we're trying to do is to find a path that's appropriate for the smaller, more local projects. If ultimately—

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

On a point of order, Madam Chair, this has gone way over time. If we're to be given seven——

9:35 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Sopuck, everybody was given at least another minute over time. That was why.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Okay.

9:35 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

I will cut off the minister now and move to the next person, but almost everyone was given an extra minute.

We're going now to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes.

If we can keep it to five minutes, I can get to Mr. Morrissey and Mr. Miller before the minister has to leave.

Mr. Morrissey, please, you have five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, to follow up on my colleague Mr. Sopuck's situation, in your opening comments you addressed the fact that the legislation has to be workable for communities and that it has to be workable for the agricultural community. It's ironic that the situation we have just been listening to occurred under the legislation as it exists, as it was introduced by the former government.

This is an area that's very sensitive to me as well. How, for the legislation we're looking at now, would its code of practices alleviate that type of situation, ensuring that it will not happen?

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey. I think your question is germane in the sense that the codes of practice.... There are other jurisdictions—municipal organizations—that have successfully used this approach.

For the smaller municipal works projects and agricultural drainage operations, and where somebody wants to extend a particular dock by a few feet in an existing structure, we all have in our minds and our imaginations examples of what we would think of as small low-risk projects that necessarily need to be looked at in terms of ensuring that fish and fish habitat are protected. Canadians want to do the right thing when they're undertaking these kinds of works, as we've heard with respect to the minister from Manitoba.

We think that codes of practice, developed collaboratively with Canadians, with groups that have experience and interest in these particular structures, would say to Canadians that if they follow publicly available codes of practice...and we're looking at a way to ensure that we would be available to offer advice and support to people who say, “I want to undertake this particular local work project and I want to make sure I understand how a particular code of practice applies.” We need to be transparent and available to provide that advice and support, but if Canadians follow these codes of practice, then they're entirely compliant with the legislation, and the regulatory burden of requiring the authorizations, which necessarily take more time, would be alleviated.

We think that's the right balance between respecting the environment, fish, and fish habitat and also acknowledging that extending a dock or fixing a drainage facility in an agricultural operation in your province of Prince Edward Island or in western Canada is not necessarily the same thing as expanding a $200-million port operation on a particular river that has some of the most sensitive habitat and spawning grounds in the country. They're necessarily different discussions.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

I agree. Thank you.

Minister, you made reference to a part that I most look forward to. The legislation comes with funding. I would like you to expand on the section of restoration of fish habitat. We all have habitat that was destroyed whether through natural forces or changing environment. I have a couple in my own riding. We heard a lot of that when the committee was reviewing loss protection.

Can you give briefly your overview of how this new budgetary item will address these issues?

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

You will also be aware that in the oceans protection plan, as Mr. Hardie raised earlier, there was a $75-million coastal restoration fund as part of the previous $1.5-billion oceans protection plan. We thought that was a good start, but that Canadians and communities expect us to go further and have a sustained role, as you said, in restoring habitat. It's one thing to protect habitat, but if we're protecting habitat that has already been degraded or destroyed, it's much less significant than working with myriad community groups, organizations, volunteers, and provincial governments, that all have terrific ideas around how we can restore habitat and better protect it.

We want to make sure we have the funding as a government to partner with these groups to be able to support what is already happening, and enhance and accelerate that in terms of habitat restoration. Part of the investment in the Fisheries Act—almost $300 million of additional money as well to support this legislation—would be available to work with these community groups and others. We're also adding the legislative requirement that the government has a positive obligation to work to restore the habitat and not simply protect degraded habitat. That would not be as beneficial as restoring it. The support for that is massive. We just need to be able to come to the conversation with resources.

April 24th, 2018 / 9:40 a.m.

Mrs. Bernadette Jordan (South Shore—St. Margarets, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

I have allowed you to go over time to allow the minister to answer the questions because often we've run out of time right before he answers.

We have Mr. Miller for the final five minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks for being here, Minister, and staff.

On your response to Mr. Rogers at the start about staying out of farmers' fields, I'm very happy to hear that. That's one of the reasons the changes in the Fisheries Act were made. It started at previous rural caucus with concerns brought forward by SARM, the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities.

Mr. Minister, I have a question specific to my riding. I gave you a letter about three weeks ago, through Mr. Beech. The Municipality of Meaford leases a harbour off of DFO or the federal government. They have an agreement in writing that says for any damage to that harbour, the government or DFO is responsible for 100% of the repairs. A big storm took out a wharf last fall, in September, and DFO is coming back to my municipality saying they'll cover 50% of the costs up to $40,000, which means for anything over $80,000, in total, the municipality is supposed to pick up 100% of it. It's wrong. It's in writing.

Mr. Minister, if you haven't already, are you going to order DFO to follow the agreement they have with the Municipality of Meaford?

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Thank you for the question.

I want to make sure I understand the precise question. Are you referring to the Cabot Head lighthouse?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

No, Cabot Head is way up the Bruce Peninsula. Meaford is—

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

You're referring to the harbour, the wharf structure itself.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

In the Municipality of Meaford, which is halfway between Owen Sound and Collingwood....

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

You and I know that the lighthouse was also an issue and we're working on resolving, I hope, the environmental contamination there so that tourism—

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

That would be a welcome.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Based on the discussion you had with Mr. Beech, I hope we'll be making progress on that and we'll be happy to keep you informed. I've asked us to find options quickly.

With respect to the wharf, the harbour infrastructure, one of the things we have done is invest considerably in improving our capacity to respond when there is storm damage, which is unfortunately an increasing phenomenon, to many of these structures. One of the challenges across the country is that a number of these structures have been divested in the past. They're owned by municipalities, by community groups. I have some in my own riding. Obviously the challenge—

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

That's not the case here, Mr. Minister.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Obviously, the challenge, Mr. Miller, is that in those circumstances, we never have enough resources to repair the harbours. I have been told that we're working on options with respect to the one you identified, recognizing its importance. We haven't finalized the expenditures for this particular fiscal year. I hope we'll do so in the coming days, and I'd be happy to get back to you with specific options for that particular harbour.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay, Mr. Minister. I get that and I understand, or I hope you can understand, why Mr. Sopuck is frustrated, as I am.

This is a yes-or-no answer, Mr. Minister, with all due respect. There is an agreement. There has been a breach in the wharf and it needs to be fixed. The sailing season starts traditionally in early June, but definitely it's going full blast by July 1. If we get any kind of a major storm at that time, millions and millions of dollars' worth of sailboats and other pleasure craft are going to be damaged because of it, and the federal government is going to end up being responsible for it.

For the bureaucracy to.... You know, all it needs, I think, is to rattle some chains. This needs to get done. It's urgent. It happened last September, so I guess I'm asking you to tell DFO to quit ragging the puck on us.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, I wouldn't share the characterization of ragging the puck. Rattling the chain is something I'm happy to do if it's helpful to you—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

I'm glad to hear it.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

—so I'll look into that.

With respect, though, Mr. Miller, expenditures in a limited budget context, as small craft harbours necessarily are, are not yes-or-no answers. If you say yes to a particular project, you've perhaps said no to another one. That's why the calculation is necessarily a bit time-consuming. We want to make sure as we look at those expenditures, recognizing that there will always be more pressures than there are resources—