Fisheries Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Adam Burns]

We actively manage all of the herring stocks. There are fisheries management decisions that get incorporated into IFMPs, integrated fisheries management plans, and are based on the best available science for all of those stocks.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

If we've reached that critical stage and they're a key building block for the whole region in Atlantic Canada and the coastal waters off Atlantic Canada, do you feel that the plans that are in place now are adequate?

Has it reached the stage that you have to look at even further actions, recommendations, plans or enhancement of the plans in order to rescue the stocks that are at risk?

[Adam Burns]

As we've mentioned a few times, one of the key tools at our disposal is fishing effort. In a number of those stocks, we have reduced the total allowable catch based on science. Those reductions have occurred over a period of time.

I guess I would answer that we have taken additional actions and will continue to do so and establish management plans based on that science. If the science indicates that the stocks continue to decline, then our management actions would reflect that.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Of course, those management studies are ongoing, I'm sure.

One thing we've been discussing, for example, is that herring is also used as bait. Can you give us a percentage of how much of the herring harvest is utilized for bait as compared to what is used for commercial purposes?

How much of a factor would it be if we could find a suitable replacement for herring as bait? Do you feel that would have a substantial impact as well?

[Adam Burns]

We will be able to provide the committee with data. It's not my area, but I believe the department would have information around the level of export of the commercial catch.

My colleague Marc noted earlier that the portion of the commercial catch that isn't exported is almost certainly used for bait within Canada. We don't actually have any data collection. We don't ask industry what the end use is of the herring that they've caught today.

I believe we would track what the exports are, though. You could then infer that really the rest is used for bait.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

For example, if there are other types of healthy stocks out there that could be used for bait purposes, is there a way for them in a subsidiary fashion to take that extra amount of harvest out of the equation? Would that provide substantial relief without detrimental effects on the industry?

[Adam Burns]

It is absolutely, I suppose, a statement of fact that if the harvest is further reduced, then there's less fishing effort, which benefits the stock. There are other species out there that could quite likely be used as bait. Whether it's the best use of those species or not is frankly a commercial decision, primarily in terms of the net value, for example, with redfish.

The short answer is that certainly other species can be used as bait in lobster and crab fisheries, and there are currently no restrictions that would prevent harvesters from using redfish or something else as bait in their traps. That is something that is currently allowed today.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I have one final question. At what point of the critical status are the necessary recommended changes that need to be made brought forward to the minister so that action can then be taken to rescue these stocks or help these stocks to rebuild?

[Adam Burns]

That occurs every year when we bring forward advice around the management of each of the stocks. It's based on the best available science, so we provide advice around what we believe to be a sustainable level of harvest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Hardie, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There's an old joke that you can lay all the economists end to end, and they'll never reach a conclusion. I think we can say the same thing about marine science as well. That's not meant to be a knock; it's a deep ocean, it's big, and you don't know everything that's going on. Based on that, you're never going to have the definitive data you need. You're never going to have the scientific control of adjusting only one variable to see what happens.

What we've heard so far today is really kind of mushy. We don't see anything coming forward from you guys that gives us a really clear way forward. With that in mind, do we need to look at another approach?

We've been doing the same thing for a long time and we've been hearing the same kinds of responses for a long time. That and two bucks gets you a big coffee at Starbucks.

What other approach can we take—fuzzy logic, or whatever it takes—to give us a better path forward than we're seeing now?

[Adam Burns]

One of the things I mentioned earlier that I would point out is that the stock within the maritimes region.... Kent can probably speak more completely—

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I am the chair.

[Adam Burns]

He has chaired the meetings, so there you go. He has chaired the meetings around a management strategy evaluation, which is a different way of basically bringing the science discussion into how we decide on management measures. It's a way that allows us to test our management decisions, essentially in advance, using scientific models of the stock in the order of the ecosystem in some ways, in order to identify whether or not the specific management actions that we're taking work.

Globally, it is a growing area of fisheries management and fisheries science, and it seems to be a very effective way of identifying the best possible management approaches. We can respond with further details on that. Kent is an expert on that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That will be definitely worth a try.

As well, listening especially to comments on the east coast and the west coast, whenever somebody brings up seals, the artful dodging that goes on would make Charles Dickens kind of pale, because nobody wants to give a really straight answer. I understand that, again, where the science and the data might be short, it's hard, especially given your responsibilities, to give a definitive answer, but we would like something a bit more than we've heard so far today.

You say that there's a scientific harvest of certain seals. Are they eating herring? Do they eat herring?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

This isn't my direct area of expertise, but I am aware of some of the work.

To my knowledge, herring are a part of the diet for seals on the Scotian Shelf and in the gulf.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What else eats them?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

What else eats herring?

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I don't want to sound facetious, sir, but a lot of things, just about everything.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's fair enough.

If we look at the population trends for all of the things that eat herring, where would we see the most risk to herring existing?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

Historically, the largest source of predation on Atlantic herring was groundfish, meaning cod, haddock and halibut. Other fishes were the main source of predation.

Of course, we've seen changes in the ecosystem and the community structure such that groundfish don't exist in the same numbers. I'm not sure of the situation—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You kind of answered my question. If groundfish populations are going down, that means their impact on the herring population probably is also going down.

What's going up versus what's going down? We know seals have been going up.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

There are a number of current—

[Adam Burns]

I'm going to have to buy him a coffee.