Fisheries Committee on June 9th, 2020

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Watershed Watch people have had a lot to say in and around the whole Big Bar situation. They said something curious. Mr. Calkins had brought up the whole issue of the hatcheries, and Aaron Hill, who is the executive director of Watershed Watch, as well as our old friend and colleague Fin Donnelly were talking about the growing pressure to get more hatchery fish produced. They say that's a really bad idea.

Can anybody comment on that? Why would they think it's not a very good idea to look to hatchery fish to replenish the stocks?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

One of the things that need to be kept in mind is what type of effect hatchery fish will have on wild salmon stocks. I think the concern is that it would be a challenge for wild stocks, and it looks as though we're giving up on wild stocks if we go with a large-scale hatchery.

Hatcheries do have a place, there's no question, in terms of helping the stocks and in terms of what we're doing at Big Bar, for example, with regard to capturing the fish now. They're actually now in the holding area so that we can maintain that stock.

We recognize that there are a number of people who have real concerns about hatchery fish simply because of the impacts they may have on the wild Pacific salmon.

Deputy, I'm not sure if there's anything else there.

[Timothy Sargent]

Those people include many first nations, for instance, who are quite concerned about the salmon stocks. I think there is certainly a worry here that the genetic diversity that's represented by our wild stock could be overwhelmed by large-scale enhancement, which isn't to say, as the minister has said, that there isn't a place for enhancement of salmon on the west coast.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It occurs to me that because the salmon are gathering just in front of the barrier—and I believe, Minister, you referenced this a little earlier—that it would be possible to scoop some up and instead of moving them along take them and involve them in hatchery operations, which should answer the DNA issues, one would think.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We're currently looking at a number of different measures. The hatchery at the upper Fraser is one option. As I said, we are already doing the holding facility there for them, because we want to make sure we protect as many as we can, and if it's going to be a challenge for them to get through, we want to make sure we have those genetic fish.

With regard to large-scale hatcheries, there are very real concerns about mixing those with the wild Pacific salmon and the genetics involved there. It's a challenge for a lot of first nations communities and it's a challenge for environmental groups. Those are all things we take into consideration, along with making sure that the chinook population in the Fraser right now is being looked at in a hatchery capacity. We're working with a number of organizations to see that it works out.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You could try to assess the value of the efforts that have been made over a number of years and a number of governments to address the situation with salmon on the Fraser. There has been no shortage of ideas and advice, etc.

Speak to us, Minister, about the conflicting advice, because it does not seem that you can really land on a consensus. Somebody says you can do this, and then somebody else comes along—like the hatcheries—and says no, that's a terrible idea.

What are we going to do to reach a consensus so that we can move forward not only with a doable plan but with a plan that can survive a change in government or a change in minister—something where we get some continuity and we actually move the needle?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's actually a really good question.

One of the things I will say is that we make all of our decisions based on science. It's something that we're strongly committed to.

We also recognize that we need to work with a number of different groups. Honestly, consensus in fisheries is never easy to achieve, but I think it is possible because we all want the same thing. We all want the same outcome, and that is that we all want to see better populations for the B.C. salmon. We all want to see them continue to grow in abundance. We want to make sure that they're there for generations to come. We want to be able to make sure that the southern resident killer whales have a food supply. These are all things that we have to take into account.

The thing that we have to remember is that there is no one answer to making sure that those populations survive. There are a number of different things that need to be done, and hatcheries may play a role in that.

We also recognize that habitat restoration plays a role in that, that climate change plays a role in that, that clearing Big Bar plays a role in that. These are all things that we're working on right now to make sure that we're doing everything that we possibly can to maintain those stocks, because once they're gone, they're not coming back. We need to make sure that we do everything we can to keep them as resilient as they are right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Madam Gill, I understand that you're giving your time to Mr. Johns for the next question time slot, so I'll go on to Mr. Johns for five minutes or less in total.

Sir, you have the floor.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Reid, you answered a question and said that there were 192 applications for the BCSRIF.

Do you have the total value of those applications to the SRIF?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I just need some clarification. Are you asking what the total was for the 192 applications that we had?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, what was the total in terms of...?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm going to have to turn that to the deputy.

[Timothy Sargent]

Rebecca, you have those numbers.

[Rebecca Reid]

With regard to the 192 proposals, is it a question of how much money we spent?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

No. How much was the total value of the applications? Was it $100 million, $200 million...?

[Rebecca Reid]

I think it was around $340-odd million. It was very significant.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Right, so it was way oversubscribed.

One thing that there is consensus on—with indigenous communities, local governments, recreation fishers and commercial—is that we need more money to spend on restoration and habitat protection. You talked about climate change and the impact of it. A lot of these projects would be climate mitigation projects. You have approved $70 million in applications when the ask was, on the first round, $340 million. In my riding, there are groups like Coastal Restoration Society, indigenous communities and West Coast Aquatic that were rejected, all with great projects. Certainly, in the Fraser, it's the same thing.

My question is this: Is the government looking at ramping this up significantly in light of the situation with our wild salmon, which is becoming way worse, especially with Big Bar?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that we are continuing to monitor situations, and we're continuing to look at what needs to be done.

With regard to the applications that came through that were rejected, I am not really sure why. Everyone has criteria that they have to meet. We have actually committed $70 million. It's a $148-million fund, so there is still another intake of applications that will be coming forward.

Perhaps the deputy has something else he can add there, but I know that we are working to get the money out the door as quickly as we can.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It sounds to me like you have approved just over 20% of the overall ask. Clearly, this program isn't adequate to serve the needs of coastal people.

This is something that we're hearing from the Skeena to the Fraser to Clayoquot, you name it. Every watershed is asking for money. These are thousands and thousands of volunteers, mainly recreational fishers, commercial fishers and indigenous communities. Most of them are volunteers. They want to go out and do this work, but they can't do it without some resources.

What is the government going to do to mobilize, really, a volunteer workforce, a group of people who want to go out and help with restoration and habitat protection? I think this is an opportunity being wasted, especially coming out of COVID. This could be a COVID response and a COVID recovery initiative that could transform coastal British Columbia and save our iconic wild salmon.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We've committed $148 million under a two-year time frame. We've spent $70 million of that. We still have another $78 million to go. We have approved a number of projects. We know there's more that needs to be done. We know there are a lot of good projects out there and we're working very diligently to make sure we address as many of them as we possibly can.

Deputy, I'm not sure if you wanted to add anything else.

[Timothy Sargent]

I'd maybe add that, first, in terms of the oversubscription, certainly there are a number of criteria people have to meet. They have to have a proper plan. We're not going to give money to anybody who asks for it. There are terms and conditions.

I would say as well that this is a program we run in partnership with the Province of British Columbia. They also have to be satisfied that the money is going to go to good use.

This is not the only money we spend on habitat restoration. For the coastal restoration fund, for instance, about 40% of that $75 million went to B.C. salmon projects. We also have a number of other things we do with groups, volunteer groups, with restoration—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that, but, for the record, our party wants to see that tripled at least. Communities throughout the whole coast are getting denial letters for very good projects. They could do their part to help bring back our wild salmon. Restoration and habitat protection has to be the number one priority for the west coast for this government. Salmon is our economy, our food security and our culture. It's having a massive impact on coastal communities. This is an opportunity. I'm just calling on the government to do that. I hope that Big Bar hasn't diverted good projects away throughout the coast.

Mr. Weiler asked a fair question and never had an answer to it, so I just want to follow up on that. Are any projects being diverted or postponed because of Big Bar?

[Timothy Sargent]

Perhaps, Minister, I can take that on.

The answer to that is no. The money we've used for Big Bar has come from a special allotment we have gotten from the centre. It has not been taken away from other programs.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Again, I just want to reiterate a sense of urgency here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is up.

I want to say a special thank you to the minister and the officials for being here today. I understand some of them will be back again tomorrow, so we look forward to seeing you then.

I'll give the officials and the guests a chance to sign off now before we make a short statement to the committee.