Evidence of meeting #12 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishery.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl
Sterling Belliveau  Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual
Michael Dadswell  Professor of Biology (Retired), As an Individual
Melanie Sonnenberg  President, Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation
Gary Hutchins  Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

4:55 p.m.

Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

Gary Hutchins

Certainly in order to do the job effectively, we need more manpower. When it comes to resources, we need more capital to put into officers. When it comes to training, I think we're pretty well trained. However, if we don't have the resources—the boots on the ground, as it were—to monitor compliance and make sure that it exists within a fishery, then we're doing a disservice to the people involved in that fishery, whether they are indigenous fishermen or commercial fishermen.

We have seen over the years in all aspects of the fishery that at times we have no resources for anything. Sometimes we've even been told to park our vehicles because we can't put gas in them.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

You said that in your testimony, and that was pretty alarming to hear.

You talked about training just now. Did you receive much training around anti-racism or treaty rights or ways to cross-cultural understanding? Was there much training from DFO?

4:55 p.m.

Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

Gary Hutchins

No.

We do have cross-cultural training now—I believe they have a different term for it—but no, there's not enough of that. There's not a great understanding by the average fishery officer when it comes to indigenous rights and the treaty rights and the rich culture that the indigenous people bring to this country. I can assure you that nobody that I know of has ever complained about supporting treaty rights. We all support them. We just want to know how to manage them.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Do you see that as an inherent bias from the department, and that not providing that training is systemic racism? It's resources, really.

4:55 p.m.

Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

Gary Hutchins

It is, but it's not just that fishery. It's the commercial fishery. It's the inland fishery. It's the fishery where little kids can go out to fish with their fathers. Those are all problems. Without resources, you cannot effectively do your job, so you become ineffective. Because of that, we have seen such an expansion of illegal activity in the Saulnierville, the Meteghan and the Digby areas when it comes to this food, social and ceremonial fishery, and we have spent years getting the commercial fishery under control.

Here's my belief: Enforcement starts with education. My goal was always to educate people before I took enforcement action. Then, if they fail to do that, you take enforcement action. Because of that, we need to have better dialogue with everybody involved, both indigenous sides and commercial sides. In order to do that, we have to come to the table.

It's like Mr. Belliveau and Ms. Sonnenberg said: We need a committee. We need a—

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Yes, education's a key component, absolutely.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

Thank you, Mr. Hutchins.

4:55 p.m.

Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

Gary Hutchins

Absolutely.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We've gone way over.

We'll now go to Mr. Williamson for five minutes or less, please.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Belliveau, I'm led to believe that you're a lobsterman. Is that right?

5 p.m.

Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual

Sterling Belliveau

Well, I was a lobsterman for 38 years.

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Once a lobsterman, always a lobsterman.

You're also a former fisheries minister for the Province of Nova Scotia. Is that right?

5 p.m.

Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual

Sterling Belliveau

Yes. For full disclosure, I was a municipal warden for seven...nine years at the municipal level. I spent 11 years at the House of Assembly as an MLA. I can tell you right now that I have no affiliation with any political party, and I am in retirement mode.

December 2nd, 2020 / 5 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Fair enough.

You're also a former NDP politician. I always say that fishermen are a bit like politicians, in that you have to watch and hang on every word, so I don't know what to make of you. I'm going to keep you on a tight leash here because I suspect you have the gift of the gab and then some.

Have you noticed—taking all your experience—that the debate that we've seen play out in Parliament and in the popular press has become unmoored from the Marshall decisions? The court decision that came down 21 years ago does not look very much like what we're seeing proposed today by some of the first nations communities, some of their advocates in the media and many of the voices coming out of Parliament. Do you agree with that?

5 p.m.

Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual

Sterling Belliveau

I agree with part of it, Mr. Williamson. I think you're getting right to it here.

What frustrates me the most is that this here is a discussion or disagreement over a court decision. If you go back to 1999, they talked about adjacency and issues like that; to me, it's clear. Where we are at now in the last three months, between the media and both sides of this dispute, is that there's been very little focus on the actual Marshall decision.

I keep bringing up the word “adjacency”. If we had this mechanism or this table, we could get this thing resolved.

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

That's my next question. I think you need to explain that the adjacency is important because the Marshall decisions, which came from the Supreme Court, indicate that the right exists if the band was nearby, and it had to be nearby. Could you talk about that a little more? I think it's a very important point that's being missed. Why does it matter, this jumping over bands? Why is that important?

5 p.m.

Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual

Sterling Belliveau

It matters if you.... I hope that your members have a map there. If you don't, I hope you take notes. If you look at the Sipekne’katik band, you see that Mr. Sack's band is basically northeast of Halifax and between Halifax and Millbrook, while if you look at Bear River and Acadia, as I pointed out in my opening remarks, you see that Mr. Sack is a two-and-a-half-hour to three-hour car drive from his territory. It's roughly one day or two days in a fishing boat away from his territory. If we go back to the Marshall decision and the clarification by your fisheries standing committee, I have documents clearly defining that it has to be adjacent to the individual chief's territory. We would have this resolved within this hour framework that we're dealing with right now.

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

This means, therefore, that this first nations fishery that came from so far away doesn't fall within the Marshall decision. Is that your belief?

5 p.m.

Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual

Sterling Belliveau

That's my interpretation. That's my perspective on the decision, yes. I'm not that far from all other commercial stakeholders in this area.

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I'd like to turn now—I only have 30 seconds left—to Mr. Hutchins.

We've heard from the minister that her office does not direct DFO officers. I think you have said something different in the press.

Is the minister correct that there is no interference from the minister's office in enforcement on the waters?

5 p.m.

Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual

Gary Hutchins

That's absolutely incorrect. She had officers stand down from conducting a lawful enforcement of an illegal fishery. That is direct interference into what a fishery officer does.

She has no authority to do that, by the way. She cannot. I've talked to some learned people. She has no authority to interfere in an enforcement operation by telling them to stand down.

I can tell you that fishery officers are embarrassed and deflated and disillusioned. They have no faith in their department anymore because of this. That's a serious situation.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Mr. Chair, I'm going to switch my time with my colleague Mr. Battiste.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Mr. Battiste, you're up for five minutes or less, please.