Fisheries Committee on Dec. 9th, 2020

[Zo Ann Morten]

We have that combination of the marine environment as well as the freshwater. Freshwater we can deal with a little bit more. I do know that this year the water levels in the Shuswap were so high I was unable to do any training. We have high water, which has not been the case in the past. Kamloops is getting flooded. Debris and silt and stuff are coming down because of the response to the pine beetle—because of taking that out—and then there were the wildfires that happened afterwards.

The cyclical effects need to be taken into consideration as well. We have low times that are supposed to be low and high times that are supposed to be high, and sometimes they can move about. We'd sure like to find out, and get a little bit more curious, when things go bad. Chum salmon didn't turn up last year, but we haven't heard a big fuss about them. I hear they're not as tasty as the sockeye.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold. You've gone a little bit over.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

It's fascinating testimony that was given over the last almost two hours.

Would it be fair analysis that Fisheries and Oceans Canada is not all of the problem and they do not have control over all of the solutions? I have heard different testimony coming from several witnesses that there are issues that are not under the control of DFO and that they are are having a significant negative impact on salmon stocks.

Would you care to opine?

[Robert Chamberlin]

There are many different impacts, and Cohen was very clear about that. Certainly some of them are federal and some of them are provincial. I think that really shows the need to have federal-provincial-first nations co-operation in working together to address the situation.

I want to draw your attention to the precautionary principle. This is what was the basis of the LOU to remove fish farms in the Broughton Archipelago. We have the Province of British Columbia stepping up and meaningfully—meaningfully—safeguarding wild salmon environment by implementing the precautionary principle as identified by the first nations.

There is nothing different going on in the Discovery Islands in that regard, and we're going to see whether the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is going to be able to follow suit and enact the same precautionary principle to safeguard what we have already identified, and nobody can deny, are critical declines in Fraser River fish.

Thank you.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

Ms. Morton, you used the reference as well.

[Zo Ann Morten]

I think if we could get the provincial and federal governments working together with first nations to that common goal, it will go a long way.

I was on the agriculture committee meetings the other day, though, where there was talk about land-based aquaculture, and the fellows were saying we need a pipe to bring the salt water in and then we need a pipe to take the effluent out and put in the salt water.

It's a matter of actually having an interest in solving the problem, and not just moving it around.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I have a question to Chief McNeil.

Chief McNeil, you referred to allowing us to manage ourselves, referring to first nations.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? You indicated in your discussion that when you were managing yourselves more, there were more successful results. Did I interpret you correctly?

[Chief Tyrone McNeil]

It's twofold. One is managing ourselves around the guardian program. We had our own citizens trained to be guardians to hold—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You don't have that anymore, Chief?

[Chief Tyrone McNeil]

No, the funding ran out, and it's all proposal-based now.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

How long has that been happening? What's the timeline between when you were managing yourselves?

[Chief Tyrone McNeil]

It was from the early nineties up until the late nineties or early 2000s, and from then on it's been purely DFO.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

When you compare those two periods, could you just paint a picture for the committee on what the state of the stock was in the period when you were managing yourselves and how you saw it, versus now, when you're no longer involved in that management process?

[Chief Tyrone McNeil]

In that component of management, it's about managing and monitoring the access during fisheries.

In the nineties there was still abundance—not as much as there was in the seventies and eighties, but still lots for us, for recreational, for sport and for commercial fishing. We were working with our citizens, who were transitioning from a time when if we were hungry, we would go out and fish for the table, to lesser runs, especially the Early Stuarts. That's when they started to decline, so we had to really monitor ourselves. We did it effectively by working with people, with fishers, with communities, but now DFO's management approach is to charge as many of us as they can. If we don't plead guilty, it takes five to seven years in court to finally come to whatever the decision is by the court. That's, by default, DFO's approach on management now: tying us up in court. We lose our jobs. We don't want to say we're guilty because we're not guilty, so we have to keep going to court. It's hugely problematic.

They take our boats, our trucks. They take everything from us, whereas when recreational fishers and others are caught, they don't do that.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Could you just explain to me—I'm an east coaster—what would be a charge that would be laid against you now in this environment that would not have occurred when you were managing the resources?

[Chief Tyrone McNeil]

When we were managing the resources, if one of our members was caught fishing out of licence times, we'd go in there and look at him and see that he was in complete poverty and his family was in complete poverty, so it was an absolute sustenance fishery.

Then, rather than taking his boat, if he had one, or his nets if he had them, we'd then work with the community that he was from, because there are social supports available that could be brought to bear under the right conditions. It was more of a social support, encouraging and supporting, as opposed to the purely punitive position that DFO manages with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey. You're about 10 seconds over.

We now go to Madame Gill for two and a half minutes, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like Mr. Adolph to have the floor, as he wanted to answer my question. But I would like to rephrase the question because the answers were not what I was expecting.

I would like to address Mr. Chamberlin's hypothesis about the salmon becoming extinct, the uncertainty about traditional food, and the suspicion with regard to DFO. Those concerns could lead to dissatisfaction among the First Nations.

I would like to know whether, in the long-ish term, they feel tensions like those that have arisen with the Micmac in Nova Scotia.

I don't want to be a prophet of doom or talk about a crisis, but do you see that as a possibility?

[Arthur Adolph]

Yes, actually, it is possible. In regard to taking a look at the situation that was happening on the east coast in comparison to the west coast, I think really what occurred on the east coast was that there was lag. There was a long lag of time for the federal government to actually look at implementing the court case, and it kind of erupted into this situation for the lobster. When we look at that context in the east coast compared with the west coast, really what we need to look at are the court cases that have recognized our right to fish. We need to actually move these forward so that we can become part of the solution in relation to management.

What I was going to also mention earlier is that we have two paradigm shifts that are competing within our culture, our values and our principles. In Xaxli’p here in Fountain, we take only what we need, but the environment we're in is a capitalist society. What happens in a capitalist society is exploitation of the resources, compared to our need for the fish and taking only what we need, knowing that the fish are going to feed the bears and the eagles. In turn, that's going to be carried into the forest and the old-growth forest is going to flourish.

Building on Mr. Chamberlin, provincially, we need to take a look at how best we manage the forests so that we're not taking out the old-growth forests and the fish will come up and replenish the old-growth forests. Then the bears will come and the eagles will come. Right now, everything is collapsing. The whole ecosystem is collapsing because of the state of the fishery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns to finish off for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Right now, I believe this is a watershed moment where if the minister doesn't take emergency action with emergency investments.... Without implementing urgent policy and without a salmon recovery plan that is, obviously, led by indigenous people, this minister could be the minister who oversees the collapse of wild Pacific salmon, or she can be the minister who helps bring salmon back.

I ask you, do you believe it's true that this is the pivotal moment right now? I'm going to ask each of you for just a yes or no.

I'll start with you, Ms. Morten.

[Zo Ann Morten]

Yes, we've had lots of moments, but this is the time.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Wickaninnish, would you comment?

[Clifford Atleo Sr.]

It's yes.