Evidence of meeting #24 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hatcheries.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Capt Josh Temple
Mr. Morrissey, are you asking my opinion on which are more detrimental, green crab or harbour seals?
4:55 p.m.
Capt Josh Temple
That would be a question best left to science. That's punching above my weight class. I certainly think they are both having a detrimental impact, but it would be impossible for me to quantify which could potentially have a greater impact. I think we don't know enough about green crab yet to make that determination, unfortunately. We hope to soon.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
But for the committee, could you identify that pinniped control should be a part of rebuilding salmon stock?
4:55 p.m.
Capt Josh Temple
I believe if sound science supports pinniped control, then we cannot turn a blind eye to peer-reviewed and proven science. I might perhaps refer these questions to Mr. Riddell. His expertise far outweighs mine from a scientific perspective.
I do appreciate the questions, Mr. Morrissey.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you.
Mr. Hauknes, you mentioned in your opening comments a discrepancy in data collection between first nation catch rates and commercial. Did I hear you correctly? Could you expand on that issue?
4:55 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
Yes. In commercial fishing we have a logbook that we have to keep. Every fish we encounter during that day is recorded. When we get to the dock, that logbook is cross-checked against what has been unloaded. We have to report that to a government agency at our expense.
In first nations and recreational fishing, there is data collection, but it is woefully inadequate on how much is actually being taken out. A lot of the food, social and ceremonial fish is not recorded. Recreational fishing is not recorded as well. Some lodges are doing some data collection and passing that along. With the recreational licence you do have to sometimes report. You get a survey and you do report what you caught during a month. But outside of that month....
When I went fishing in November, I got some prawns and stuff. I had to report that recreationally. But then if I went out trolling for chinook salmon in the summertime, nothing says I would have to report that.
My thought would be to increase the data collection so that you know what you're removing from the resource.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I may come back to that again if I get another chance.
Dr. Riddell, you made the comment that for the salmon stock, we can take land-based preventive measures to control habitat of various sources. You made the comment that we have to understand the expected results in the ocean because those are the ones that will primarily influence the health of the salmon stock.
How essential is it to understand that the impact of climate change on the ocean is one of the primary reasons for the decline of these stocks?
4:55 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
It's very important right now. For many years the ocean was a very stable supporter of salmon. We had many forecasting tools that were accurate to 10% or 20% of any returns. Those are now out by over 100-fold. We actually have many that we don't use anymore.
It's a big challenge, but to be able to decide the best way to move forward and where to invest your money, you have to understand how severe the effect is in the ocean and where this is occurring. As a best-case example, we could address providing more hatcheries if it was just a matter of producing more salmon. However, if you're producing salmon that are going out to the ocean and you know they're not going to survive, you'd be far better off to invest your money in the diversity of habitat restoration programs throughout B.C., support the communities and do small-scale hatcheries to restore community streams. Just as Mr. Temple said, use the community people to get the number of spawners out.
The salmon have multiple habitats, but the only one that affects all salmon is the ocean environment. That's why it's becoming more and more important in people's minds to understand it. To be honest, there's a woefully poor understanding of the connection between climate, oceans and salmon. We simply haven't put the effort into it. It's difficult to do, and Canada is not well prepared to do it because we don't even have a vessel that can do offshore fishing. We have a west coast trawler, but it's part of the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard can't allow it to go out to the central Pacific because it can't get back if there's an emergency, so the research we're doing becomes very expensive because we have to find vessels and the money to fund those vessels.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.
We'll now welcome back Madam Gill.
You're up now, for two and a half minutes or less, please.
April 14th, 2021 / 5 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Riddell, you talked about climate and the ocean and their relationship to salmon. We can all agree that the solution requires a long-term undertaking, but in the immediate term, what should we do research and investment wise to turn things around?
5 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
As I said in my comments, all of these habitats are interconnected. If we know that we have a problem in the ocean, then we have to take additional action in the other habitats. One common feature is that salmon go through estuaries, so restoring and preserving our estuaries could do a lot of good. We could mix that with the sampling for green crabs that we've talked about and removing them.
The big question then gets to water management and what we do in the terrestrial habitats. There's a huge diversity of actions that could be taken there. The problem with that is not that it's not worthwhile. It's that you have to take enough action in a place to really make a difference in the survival of the salmon. The idea that we have a huge diversity of activities is good for community engagement. It's great that way. It's good to support first nation communities throughout B.C. However, it may not net sufficient benefit to a particular salmon stock to really increase the numbers.
These are the difficult trade-offs we'll have to make, but there are lots of actions we can take through the community, just as Mr. Temple said. The Pacific Salmon Foundation works with 345 recognized community organizations in B.C. that are all capable of doing good local work.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Riddell.
If I understand correctly, none of the measures you just mentioned is urgent, as far as you're concerned.
As for government investments, do you see any measures as priorities? You gave more than four examples in your opening statement.
5 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
Well, the money from the government could be seen as seed money, too. In many cases, we work with community groups where the foundation will only fund 50% of the work. You would be amazed at the power of communities to raise money. If you enable them to get started—provide them with the seed cash—they can do a lot of work. They can get donations from forest companies for planting, they can work with different groups to restore shorelines, they can do work in estuaries. We have first nation communities on Vancouver Island that are actively restoring the vegetation in estuaries and removing old boats. There's lot of work that can be done, but there is a need for the seed money that we've all referenced.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Madam Gill.
We'll now go to Mr. Johns, for two and a half minutes or less, please.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Dr. Riddell, you talked a lot about interconnectedness. You talked about climate, ocean and salmon. There's a huge debate, as you know, that's emerging on the Salish Sea—and throughout B.C., really—about herring. The government hasn't done a great job, to my understanding, of looking at the interconnectedness of various species, especially the forage fish. Can you talk about the government's efforts and what you think needs to be done around research and the science around this issue?
5:05 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
Well, it's not just herring, Mr. Johns. As you probably know, there are many different species of forage fishes. Herring is without question the most abundant. With respect to our understanding of what we call the “dynamics”—what determines the abundance of herring recruitment in any one year—I think there are people working on that. We're even now talking about means to restore past herring spawning areas by moving spawn around to increase its distribution. There are others, like sand lance, and other species, like eulachon, and we're addressing that by changing the shoreline from cement and big logs. We're putting it back into a natural setting so that we restore the beach dynamics and all of the spawning for these forage fish. If we were to increase the number of forage fish, it's quite possible we could greatly reduce the seal predation of juvenile salmon in the Strait of Georgia. The preferred food of seals is not salmon, but they will eat salmon when they're present. They would far rather consume herring.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
That's fantastic. Thank you for that response.
You talked about salmon farms and we know the Liberal government put in their mandate letter—actually, they made it a campaign promise in 2019—to move away from open-net salmon farming. Obviously, we have issues related to sea lice pathogens, escapes, and now mouth rot and die-offs. Do you believe the government is fulfilling its mandate and its promise from 2019, and do you think it's clear what the government is doing?
5:05 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
Well, I think the intention is clear, though it remains to be seen what exactly is done. Mr. Beech, obviously, has the pressure of proceeding with that one shortly. If we proceed by moving to more closed containment, that will obviously reduce the interaction. That will be beneficial to wild Pacific salmon.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Do you see the sense of urgency right now for the government to act?
5:05 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
Well, as you've heard, there's a sense of urgency about wild Pacific salmon everywhere. It's not just about salmon farms. There's a very broad concern. Throughout the central coast, we have very poor pink and chum production. That's not salmon farming, but they're just as concerned as the people in southern B.C. We can't get overly fixated on just one problem. There are a number of populations that all merit restoration.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Your time is up, Mr. Johns.
We'll now go to Mr. Mazier, for five minutes or less, please.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for coming out this afternoon.
Dr. Riddell, I wanted to pick up on something you mentioned earlier. Did you say that no one, to your knowledge, had been consulted on the funding for Pacific salmon in the upcoming federal budget?
5:05 p.m.
Science Advisor, Pacific Salmon Foundation, As an Individual
Well, I hope that's not true. What I said is that I'm not aware of anyone who has been directly engaged in any of those discussions. I was with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for 30 years as one of their lead scientists on that, and under the Salmon Foundation, I talk to people throughout B.C. I have to admit, as I was just saying to people yesterday, that I am a bit surprised I haven't heard about the consultation, because this could be a big, big effort. As I said very clearly, many, many people are concerned, so I sincerely hope that they have consulted widely with first nations and other user groups. I just have to admit that I simply don't know any who have.