Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prawns.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Madame Gill. Your time is up.
We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.
May 3rd, 2021 / 4:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Great, thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank everybody on the committee again for fast-tracking this very important study.
Mr. Atkins, I was talking to a former fisheries officer who is baffled at why this would happen. In the 1970s and 1980s, he said they always took a collaborative approach, working with the industry. In fact, it was industry that came forward with the recommendations on the size of the prawns because of the market. He said that the conservation was done by the spawner index.
Can you tell us a bit about how the spawner index works and how it doesn't have anything to do with size in terms of conservation?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Pacific Prawn Fishermen’s Association
Yes, thank you.
The spawner index is a tool to ensure that a certain number of females are left in the water to reproduce and spawn for future generations. That is the primary tool, and as James said, there are other tools, such as mesh size, single haul limits, and all these things to help sort product underwater, and that's the key there.
This whole issue comes down to the definition of "readily determinable". Nobody at DFO has been able to provide us with a definition, and our lawyer—and we supplied the testimony there—has suggested that it does meet the definition. It's a very confusing statement, yes.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Given that it would only take five minutes to pour a hose over a tub—
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Two and half.... That sounds pretty readily available. The size, I think that comes back to that piece as well.
Is there any benefit to a fisher to have small prawns? Wouldn't that hurt your market when you're selling? Can you explain a bit about how that plays out if you have too many small ones?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Pacific Prawn Fishermen’s Association
Absolutely.
There's very little market for small prawns. The market, the price, everything is driven by the size of the prawns. The larger the prawn, the higher the price.
Fishermen don't want to fill the market with these smaller, medium prawns. They can simply be returned to the water and be caught later in the season or the next season at the next size up. There's really no market for the small prawns.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
On this definition of “readily determinable”, maybe, Mr. McIsaac, you could speak a little bit about how this could end up playing out and actually impacting other fisheries—say, a fisher in the hold of a boat.
Could you talk about just how this might spread out and how DFO could just turn around and say this could actually impact another species?
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director, BC COVID-19 Active Fishermen’s Committee
Yes, it has that potential of spreading across multiple species. We don't understand exactly what they're seeing here and the implications of this. Hake, here on this coast, is frozen in totes at sea.
What does that mean—put that offline? They're telling us not.... You fill a hold full of 50,000 pounds of fish. The officer walks onboard the boat. He can't see the fish at the bottom. Are you supposed to unload your entire hatch for him? What does this actually mean here?
Yes, there are some big questions.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Orr, can you talk about the supply chain? We're hearing from restauranteurs, people in the tourism sector, community market organizers. The whole coast seems united in standing with the prawn fishers.
Can you talk about the implications not just for to the prawn fishers themselves, but also for the whole coastal economy?
4:20 p.m.
Lead Representative, Prawn Industry Caucus
Thank you.
Prawns in B.C., dare I say, are becoming almost like what lobster is to the east coast. There's a tremendous growing and existing fan base for access to our local sustainable catch of prawns. Restaurants are proud to feature them. They're celebrated as sustainable both internally by DFO and externally, where they're certified by places such as Ocean Wise, Monterey Bay Aquarium. These make them a very attractive product for restaurants, especially for forward-thinking restauranteurs to be highlighting that type of seafood on their menus.
When we look at interfering with the availability of that product to restaurants and making it almost unavailable to tourism, we've basically looking to take apart decades' worth of work to showcase something that we should be very proud of in terms of sharing this common property resource and celebrating it with the people in B.C. and the people who come to visit here.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Lawson, you fish from a remote community. Can you talk about how this new reinterpretation has an impact on remote and especially indigenous communities? How impossible would it be for some of those communities to get their prawns to market without tubbing?
4:20 p.m.
President, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union – Unifor
It would be impossible. I'm sure I could probably arrange with the fish company to come to take the export prawns, but without tubbing I have no way to access a local market. I'm pigeon-holed into exporting only. I was extremely lucky that I had lots of local people in Campbell River who wanted to buy prawn tubs off me, because it was so much more valuable than my export market prawns. It really boosted my business and kept me viable.
We're in a position now where without urgency and transparency from DFO, we can't solve the problem. It's a season loss for me to get sent in or to be investigated from my remote fishing grounds. The safer option is to devalue my product after already setting up for tubbing and, yes, go into exporting only. I have to devalue myself to be safe now.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time has gone over a bit.
We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the witnesses for being here.
There are a number of questions to go through, so I'll try to rattle them off quickly if we can get quick answers.
I have a question for Mr. Atkins, please. How often were harvesters inspected at sea previous to this time?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Pacific Prawn Fishermen’s Association
I'm not a fisherman on the grounds, but speaking with my directors and other fishermen, I don't think it's very often at all. It's my understanding there's not a lot of funding for C and P to be out on the water. They would be boarded maybe once per season, if that.
The PPFA does pay into the C and P collaborative agreement to help with its efforts, but very little on the water action.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Mr. McIsaac, you referred to this as basically an existential threat to the industry in B.C. The fishery sector was facing existential threats already with the COVID situation, offshore markets being decimated, and so on.
It sounds like this was just another existential threat thrown on top of everything else out there. Would you agree?
4:25 p.m.
Managing Director, BC COVID-19 Active Fishermen’s Committee
Yes, and for no apparent good reason, as well.
You just heard from James about the impact it has on his business. He has to devalue his business.
There are other harvesters out there that have bank agreements that specify how many tubs they are actually going to produce. Now, you can't meet your bank agreement, because you can't legally produce tubs.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
It sounds like someone brought down a solution that was looking for a problem.
Ms. Orr, what options are there for random inspections on arrival at the docks? Would that be as effective as the random at sea inspections?
4:25 p.m.
Lead Representative, Prawn Industry Caucus
It is really important to note that spawner indexing takes place aboard the vessels quite frequently throughout the season. The number of samples obtained from vessels typically means that each vessel may be boarded several times during the season. Some report being boarded even once a week.
When a spawner index test is being conducted, that is also an opportunity to make any observations regarding undersized prawns, or any violations of that matter. That is a function of that spawner index, as well, that the observers on board are mindful of any potential violations that require reporting.
C and P officers are welcome to board vessels at any time. Opportunistically, they can meet vessels at docks. In some cases they watch vessels from the shoreline. Any opportunity and every opportunity is available. While boarding the vessels may not be as frequent by C and P officers, there is a terrific amount of interaction between observers and C and P officers throughout the season.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Mr. Lawson, can you describe how much product may be held onboard the vessels, and for how long it might be held there? How often do you come into port to offload?
4:25 p.m.
President, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union – Unifor
I'm a smaller freezer vessel, but I can hold my product for probably 10 days for about 5,500 lbs., and that is not a big vessel. There are definitely bigger boats out there with way longer holding times, where someone could come along at any time and inspect that product.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Would you say the larger harvesters are better equipped to monitor their catch and meet some of these regulatory requirements?
4:25 p.m.
President, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union – Unifor
No. We all go through the same process of grading and adhering to the conditions of the licence.
They are able to stay on the grounds longer, but the process for making sure we have legal prawns is the same in the larger boats.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Mr. McIsaac, have you heard from other species harvesters, other types of fish harvesters, who are concerned about these changes coming forward, unannounced and without consultation?