Fisheries Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I understand. I guess what I'm asking you is....

I'm trying to find a rationale or a reason for the regulatory changes. Nothing that we're discussing here today would lead me to believe that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans would make a unilateral change. Nothing has changed in your practice. Nothing has changed in 50 years. You testified here that you've been co-operative with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans when it comes to traceability.

My question to you is what could possibly be motivating the Department of Fisheries and Oceans? They are going to testify at some point in time before this committee and I'm going to ask them questions about why they made the changes they did. They're going to have to have some rationale or reason for it. I'm trying to guess here what that is.

Has anybody been displaced economically that you know of, whether it's legitimate economics or economically in any other way?

[Michael Atkins]

I have not spoken to a single person involved in science or fishing—regardless, any which way—who understands this or has any explanation for it. I would like to hear an answer from DFO.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes. Well, we're going to get to that.

Just to remind me, this is an effort-based fishery and not a quota-based fishery, correct?

[Michael Atkins]

Correct.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes.

Mr. McIsaac, you brought up IUU fishing. What would be the rationale in this particular case? I'm assuming that everything you guys catch eventually makes port in Canada at some point in time. You're not off-loading from your boats or from your vessels anywhere but a Canadian port. Do I have that correct?

[Jim McIsaac]

That's correct. Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

So there's no reason to think that from an enforcement perspective, if it's not happening on a vessel it couldn't happen at the point of landing as well. Is that correct?

[Jim McIsaac]

That's correct. Yes.

On the IUU component, which a couple of your members asked questions about, one of the other fisheries identified as having some kind of radical changes recently is the clam fishery. There's an estimate that about two to three times the actual commercial landing is being brought in through IUU fishing. The way to stop that is to drive the entire fishery through processing plants instead of direct to the consumer, or to restaurants, or what have you. That's a response from the department to get a handle on IUU.

I'm not certain if there's something like that happening, or if they're thinking that there's something like that happening, with the prawn fishery and IUU, and that this is a way to get a handle on that. Really, it thoroughly disrupts the prawn fishery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins. The time has gone a little bit over.

We'll go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

What's happened outside the fishing fleet—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If tubbing is no longer available, what kind of alternative process might be used that would still, for instance, provide an acceptable product direct from the fisher to the customer?

Mr. Atkins, we'll start with you, because you'll have to start thinking about this, obviously, if in fact DFO requires some changes for next season.

[Michael Atkins]

We're still exploring options as a group, as a board. There's really not a lot that we've found so far. It makes us very nervous.

I'm not too sure if I have a good answer for that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

If the tubbing isn't available and the local restaurants, say, can't get the product from fishers directly, and they have to get it from a processor, what can you speak to in terms of the quality of the product they'll get from the processor and the price versus what they would get directly from the fisher?

Ms. Orr, could you speak to that?

[Emily Orr]

Sure. It is our hope that the processing companies are maintaining the highest level of quality possible in terms of any processing that's done. It's certainly in their best interests to do so.

In terms of price, I cannot give any recent examples in terms of differentiation between what a restaurant might purchase from a fish buyer or what they would achieve in getting direct from harvester, as those prices fluctuate annually. What I can say is that the difference between selling a pound of prawns to your wholesale buyer and being able to sell it to a person who comes to purchase it directly from you out of your community can sometimes be a difference of $10 per pound. That's a very stark difference. Even if it's a very small portion of a vessel's catch that is staying domestically for sale in tubs, it's quite a large contribution to their overall profit.

I hope that answers some of your question.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It would seem, just by way of a comment, that the absence of tubbing would actually deprive small local markets of access to a really excellent product.

Everybody is nodding yes. That's good.

[Emily Orr]

Absolutely. Last year in Powell River, some local harvesters set up pop-up sales throughout the season. In some cases, by the afternoon they would have over 300 people lining up from the small town. Almost every time they did that, that's the lineup they had. They had people cheering in the lineup for the option to be able to purchase local seafood.

That's something we do hear a lot. Why can we not buy local seafood? Why can we not access local seafood? Why is it all shipped overseas? Here in this fishery, where we are making great strides and terrific efforts in making it available for locals, this would be a very, very detrimental step backwards.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to give some time to my colleague, Mr. Cormier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have just over a minute, Mr. Cormier.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. I'll try to be quick.

On the same questioning as Mr. Hardie, let's say it's a conservation issue, because I've also found that the way the decision was taken a little bit like, maybe we can question it. But about other options—my father fished all his life—with lobster now on boats, they have some tubs. It's not the same kind of tub, but a big tub that they have a water recirculation pump for. They put the lobster in it so that it stays alive longer. It's the same for crab, for example. Instead of putting crabs in the holding tank with ice, they keep them alive in water now for up to two days.

Are there other options that you can take to have those prawns stay alive longer so that that they can be better quality when they arrive at the wharf, or is it only when they are frozen that you can have this...?

[Emily Orr]

It's very difficult. To replicate the environment that prawns come from, which is very deep water, the temperature needs to be exact—to literally the degree. The salinity needs to be 21 parts per million. It needs to be oxygenated water. Prawns are very temperamental once they are brought to the surface. It is possible to keep them live in holds of water, but doing so any longer than a day becomes increasingly difficult. I do know of people being able to do it for a few days, but it is a very delicate process.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you very much, and to to my colleague, Ken, for sharing his time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Mr. Mazier, for five minutes or less, please.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses this afternoon.

I'm a farmer in Manitoba, and my heart goes out to you for what you're going through right now. I cannot believe what I'm hearing here.

Mr. Atkins, is it my understanding that prawn traps have a minimum mesh-size requirement to ensure that small prawns have the ability to escape? Does the mesh size address most of the concerns around the size requirements? If not, are there other ways for inspectors to verify that size?

[Michael Atkins]

You are correct about the mesh size. There are also escapement rings, and the single haul limit allows that as well. The longer the prawns are in there, the smaller ones are going to be pushed out by the larger ones. That is all captured within the trap.

I'm sorry; I forgot the second half—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Are there other ways for the inspectors...? In your opening remarks, you referred to other ways of looking at sizing.

Is there some other way, a new approach they could take, so that inspectors could verify size, other than what they're doing right now?