Evidence of meeting #29 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fin Donnelly  Parliamentary Secretary, Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of British Columbia
Jesse Zeman  Director of Fish and Wildlife Restoration, B.C. Wildlife Federation
Jason Hwang  Vice-President, Pacific Salmon Foundation
Darren Haskell  President of Fraser Salmon Management Council, Tl'azt'en First Nation
Aaron Hill  Executive Director, Watershed Watch Salmon Society
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Tina Miller

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I now call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 29 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted on October 19, 2020, and April 21, 2021, the committee is meeting on its study of the state of the Pacific salmon.

I would like to advise members that I will be carving out about 10 minutes towards the end of the meeting to do a little scheduling information.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021, and therefore members can attend in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For the benefit of our witnesses, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of “Floor”, “English” or “French”. With the latest Zoom version, you may now speak in the language of your choice without the need to select the corresponding language channel. You will also notice that the platform's “raise hand” feature is now in a more easily accessed location on the main toolbar, should you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. I believe everybody is here by Zoom, so I don't need to go through that.

I'll give a reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses for today.

We have, from the Watershed Watch Salmon Society, Aaron Hill, executive director; from the Tl'azt'en First Nation, Darren Haskell, president of Fraser Salmon Management Council; from the Pacific Salmon Foundation, Jason Hwang, vice-president; from the B.C. Wildlife Federation, Jesse Zeman, director of fish and wildlife restoration; and from the Government of British Columbia and no stranger to this committee, Fin Donnelly, parliamentary secretary for fisheries and aquaculture.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Donnelly back to this committee and thank him for his hard work in the past in making sure we passed Bill S-238, which dealt with shark fin importation, and of course Bill S-203, which dealt with captivity of whales and dolphins. Mr. Donnelly played an important role in getting that passed, not only in this committee but through the House as well.

Welcome back, Mr. Donnelly, to familiar territory, except you're not in the committee room as usual.

3:55 p.m.

Fin Donnelly Parliamentary Secretary, Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of British Columbia

Thank you, Chair.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We will now proceed with opening remarks from Mr. Donnelly for five minutes or less. He knows to keep it on time or I will cut him off, because he's used to it.

3:55 p.m.

Parliamentary Secretary, Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of British Columbia

Fin Donnelly

Thank you for those introductory remarks, Mr. Chair. I very much appreciate them.

Good afternoon, everyone.

It's great to be with you virtually. I'm coming to you from the traditional unceded territory of the Kwikwetlem First Nation and the Coast Salish peoples.

Thank you for the opportunity to present to the standing committee regarding the state of Pacific salmon. My name is Fin Donnelly. Iyem Yewyews is my Squamish name.

Last August, I had the honour of presenting to this committee in my role as chair of the board of a non-profit charity called the Rivershed Society of British Columbia. This year I'm here in my new role as British Columbia's parliamentary secretary for fisheries and aquaculture for the new provincial Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.

One main reason I am grateful to be in my new position is to support the value that so many British Columbians place on our marine environment and our wild Pacific salmon. When I was last here, I stated that we can't have healthy salmon and salmon runs if we don't have healthy watersheds. I was concerned about the need for increased government action on watershed conservation, protection and restoration. I encouraged the federal government to work with the British Columbia government, indigenous governments, scientists and academics, conservation organizations, fishers, labour groups, coastal communities and others to conserve, protect and restore salmon. None of us will be able to succeed in restoring wild Pacific salmon on our own. We must work together to ensure they are supported for their whole life cycle.

In my new role I am fully committed to working with first nations, other organizations and the federal government to restore wild Pacific salmon and their habitat. In fact, the mandate given to me by Premier Horgan states just that: “Lead work with the federal government to develop new strategies to protect and revitalize B.C.'s wild salmon populations”.

When I was here last, I also asked if you have the political courage to make the tough recommendations needed in your report. Now I too am representing a government, and I can assure you that B.C. does have that courage. We will be demonstrating it in our bold, new, made-in-B.C. wild salmon strategy that is currently being developed and in working to double the size of the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund. Additionally, the province is preparing both a new coastal marine strategy and a new watershed security strategy. These three initiatives will help ensure timely, coordinated provincial action in areas of significance to wild Pacific salmon and their habitats.

The Province of British Columbia was pleased to see the proposed funds for restoring wild salmon in B.C. in the recent federal budget, as well as the additional commitment for the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund, which B.C. is working towards supporting as well. The province looks forward to discussing in detail how our governments can work together on these objectives, including through support of watershed restoration and innovation in community fish hatcheries. We also noted the funds that have been proposed for developing a plan to transition from open-net pen salmon farming in B.C.'s waters by 2025.

Given the recent decision in the Discovery Islands, we would like the federal government to commit to ensuring that any transition plan also includes economic supports for communities—the people who are directly impacted by these decisions—while the transition and the return to a wild salmon economy unfolds.

When I was here last, I said we needed bold action and leadership, along with a commitment of resources and support to help wild Pacific salmon. No one wants B.C.'s salmon populations to go the way of the Atlantic cod, but we are at a real risk of extirpation of some of B.C.'s once-renowned salmon runs. British Columbians want us to work with indigenous leadership, as well as our federal, local and community partners, to ensure these iconic species not only survive but thrive into the future. We're going to continue to build a made-in-B.C. wild salmon recovery strategy that we can all be proud of.

I hope you will join me in taking the actions needed to ensure their abundance and diversity for this generation and generations to come.

Thank you, everyone.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly. It shows your experience when you have five seconds to spare. Well done.

We'll now go to Mr. Zeman for five minutes or less, please.

4 p.m.

Jesse Zeman Director of Fish and Wildlife Restoration, B.C. Wildlife Federation

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's good to hear the words from Fin today.

Thank you for the opportunity to be a witness from the traditional territory of the Syilx first nations.

I'm the director of fish and wildlife restoration with the B.C. Wildlife Federation. The B.C. Wildlife Federation is the largest and oldest conservation organization in British Columbia, with approximately 43,000 members.

As you're all aware, salmon are in critical care. The first thing we need to do is stop the bleeding. That means we stop killing endangered fish before they reach their spawning grounds. In 2019 the minister committed to protect endangered spring and summer Fraser chinook runs, which are 42 and 52, by limiting mortality in Canadian fisheries to 5%. This limit was exceeded by over 100% the very first year. In 2020, fisheries in the Fraser River alone exceeded this limit by over 300% for 42 fish. The minister has set a limit and DFO has shown it is unable to meet it. This scenario has been repeated for interior Fraser steelhead and Fraser River sockeye.

Scientists should identify if there's a harvestable surplus of fish and how many can be harvested by fishers. Management's job is to figure out how to keep that harvest within the limits identified by scientists. It seems DFO management needs an intervention, as it consistently demonstrates it is incapable of sustainably managing fishing.

After we stop killing endangered fish, the committee should recognize there is likely no silver bullet to salmon recovery. As a result, there is no silver bullet in terms of how to spend the money. Both the Government of Canada and the Province of British Columbia have separate yet overlapping responsibilities and legislation in terms of managing salmon and salmon habitat. The relationship between DFO and the province can be described as poor. Political will is the only tool we have to improve that.

In the context of stabilization and restoration of salmon, inventory, monitoring and science are the critical pieces. You have to measure it to manage it, and DFO lacks the baseline budget and capacity to adequately monitor key metrics for salmon populations. Critical information that we need includes both marine and freshwater survival rates to understand where the bottlenecks and changes are in terms of life history. From there we can identify and deal with the barriers.

In freshwater habitat, the legislative and regulatory regime needs implementation of existing tools and overhaul of others. While the relevant legislation often has tools that could help salmon, those tools are rarely used. Enforcement of legislation is low due to funding, capacity and a lack of political will to do the right thing for salmon.

With a federal goal to increase land conservation in Canada, you should be aware that nearly every piece of land set aside will come heavily impacted by resource extraction. Funding habitat restoration must be part of the budget for any new protected areas. Both the provincial and federal governments have a history of walking away from conservation areas once land has been set aside. This is the equivalent of picking a tomato, putting it in your cupboard and expecting it to grow.

In terms of freshwater habitat restoration, DFO's restoration unit has 16 positions for the entire province of British Columbia, and half of those are currently vacant. The projects it deals with are often proponent-driven and at a scale that is not meaningful for salmon. The restoration unit has no base budget. The restoration unit needs to be adequately staffed and funded and given the ability to plan at a watershed scale that is meaningful for salmon.

Ocean survival is the other piece of the equation, which is still largely an unknown. Peer-reviewed science that deals with manageable issues often points at fish farms, ocean ranching and pinniped predation. The minister's decision to deal with fish farms is sound and supported by the B.C. Wildlife Federation. The Pacific can hold only so much biomass. We and our neighbouring countries dump millions of hatchery pink and chum salmon, and to a lesser extent chinook and coho, into the Pacific. This is likely contributing to limiting wild salmon populations.

In terms of pinniped predation, investing in independent science through post-secondary institutions will give elected officials the best sense of what can be done to improve ocean survival. I ask that DFO be left out of the process other than to fund it, as the department has a habit of hiding science from the public and elected officials. The B.C. Wildlife Federation would be supportive of an adaptive management experiment with regard to pinniped predation.

In conclusion, there is no silver bullet. We're in crisis and we need to start working on solutions. What follows are the things can be done right away with immediate benefits: stop killing endangered fish; enforce current laws and update others; transfer net pens to land; add capacity for enforcement, inventory, monitoring, science and restoration; and separate DFO science and species at risk from DFO management.

Thank you for your time.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, sir. That was pretty close to exactly on time as well.

We'll now go to Mr. Hwang for his five-minute introductory remarks, please.

4:05 p.m.

Jason Hwang Vice-President, Pacific Salmon Foundation

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting me today. As a reminder, I have appeared before you previously. I'm the vice-president for salmon with the Pacific Salmon Foundation.

We thank this committee for your study on the state of Pacific salmon and the attention you're bringing to this matter.

I'll start with my three key points.

The first is that the new dollars announced in the federal budget are a great step in the right direction, but an ongoing commitment of both funding and effort to support wild salmon recovery will be required.

Second, wild salmon recovery needs an overarching plan to guide priorities and guide our investments.

Third, the current system and organizational infrastructure is not designed to manage and solve this problem. DFO needs support to reorganize and refocus, and federal, provincial and first nations co-operation is essential to success.

Now I will go into a little more detail on each of these points.

We are pleased to see in the federal budget the funding commitment for preserving wild Pacific salmon. It is imperative that we do everything within our power to support wild salmon recovery. We have the ability to make things better.

The current funding announced in the budget is for the next five years. Again, this is a great step in the right direction, but it will require ongoing sustained investment to help turn things around for our salmon.

We have not seen any detail so far as to how most of the $647 million announced in the budget will be used. We would welcome opportunity to advise and inform decisions around how these dollars will be applied and activated.

There is a need for immediate action, but there is also a need to develop an overarching and coordinated plan that should guide investments and priorities. Recovery of wild salmon is not something that can be fixed quickly, and the temptation to pursue quick fixes should be avoided. The plan should integrate all management functions, those being habitat, harvest and hatcheries, and be supported by appropriate science and assessment. We need to turn as many things as possible more in favour of salmon in order to support recovery and future sustainability.

There is no simple one-size-fits-all approach. Each watershed or region needs a plan for the conditions for that watershed and the salmon that live there. What is needed in the coastal rainforest is not the same as what's needed in the desert-like dry interior, and what's needed in the rural north is not the same as what's needed in urban areas to the south.

Climate change is driving things and it's not going away, so the plan needs to address present and future changes from a warming climate and should focus on forward-looking solutions. The State of Washington has an approach that can be looked to as an example. As B.C.'s neighbours to the south, they face many parallel circumstances.

I would submit that we need to reimagine the management system and equip the public service and other partners and collaborators to better manage for salmon in the present day and future conditions. The current system and infrastructure at DFO is not set up for the current circumstances facing salmon. Simply investing more in a management system that isn't achieving the desired result is unlikely to get a better outcome.

There is a great need and opportunity for increased coordination and collaboration. The federal government and B.C. lack a coordinating framework for salmon-related issues, and underpinning the role of these Crown entities are the rights of Canada's indigenous peoples. There is an opportunity to establish a governance and collaboration model whereby these entities can come together to share responsibility and coordinate for salmon.

We need to keep indigenous public and commercial fishing constituencies engaged and supported as we prioritize recovery. We have their support and engagement now, and we do not want to lose them. This is a major challenge, but it's also a critically important one and one that we can address if we make it a priority.

Independent advice should become integral to the management system. The current advisory processes tend to orient toward user groups and rights holders. These have an important place in the system and should continue, but our recommendation is that we also consider a new non-partisan independent advisory approach focused on salmon recovery and sustainability.

As a final point, I've raised a number of big things that will take some time and effort to address. There are also smaller, simpler things that can be done fairly immediately.

One example would be the salmon conservation stamp. The stamp is currently just over $6, and in recent years, has generated around $1.5 million annually that supports grants to community organizations. Increasing the stamp to just $10 would generate an additional $1 million or more a year that could allow communities to do more to help their salmon and would cost each angler less than a pack of hooks.

In closing, I thank you for the opportunity to appear again today. The Pacific Salmon Foundation's sole mission is to support the ongoing sustainability of our Pacific salmon. We believe that by doing so, we're supporting our communities, our ecosystems and future generations.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Haskell for five minutes or less, please.

4:10 p.m.

Darren Haskell President of Fraser Salmon Management Council, Tl'azt'en First Nation

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to the standing committee.

My name is Darren Haskell. I'm the natural resources and fisheries manager for Tl'azt'en Nation, which is located in the headwaters of the Early Stuart sockeye. I'm also the president of the Fraser Salmon Management Council, which currently has 76 member nations from along the Fraser and the approach areas.

First off, I'd like to thank the standing committee for inviting me to speak again on the state of the salmon. I spoke previously in the summer of 2020. This important topic today is that budget announcement. The announcement of the injection of funds into the preservation of wild salmon really came as a breath of fresh air to a lot of folks out here. Some important habitat-related projects began with the BCSRIF, the British Columbia Salmon Restoration and Innovation Fund, but the injection of funds will ensure that these projects can continue and that new ones can begin, helping our salmon for at least the next five years and hopefully for many more.

As you've already heard, many of the stocks have been in steep decline over the past years. Many different factors have been contributing to these declines. Understanding climate change and the impacts on wild salmon is something that could help us react in a proper manner to these changes. For example, right now we already know that the freshet timing has changed on the Fraser River. It occurs almost a full week earlier, and the impacts on fish passage in the Fraser during this time is really great. We know the ocean has been warming up, reducing nutrients that migrating wild salmon depend on for food during the long migration around the Pacific. Understanding the cumulative effects on wild salmon is also very important. The work that Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders' group is engaging in with the FIT-CHIP for understanding cumulative effects on salmon has been needed for a long time.

I'll give you an example of cumulative effects building up on these salmon. The Early Stuart is a Fraser salmon stock that has a 1,400-kilometre journey right from the mouth of the Fraser to the spawning grounds in the Stuart-Takla watershed. Along the way they need to pass through effluent from industry that's flowing throughout the Fraser and make their way through mixed stock fisheries and the different changes in water temperature along the Fraser, and if that's not enough, they have to go through Hells Gate, where in certain years the velocity going through there really causes a barrier to their migration. Then after that we have now had the Big Bar landslide for the last two years, which has been a huge detriment on anything that spawns above Big Bar.

We, as Upper Fraser first nations, have had water quality monitoring stations throughout our watershed so we can keep track of what's happening in our backyard, but water quality is only a small part of the studies that need to be done to understand the environmental effects on wild salmon. The announcement of hatcheries being looked at a lot more closely is.... The word “hatcheries” used to be a bad word among first nations. If we were pushing towards hatcheries, it really meant we were already past the point of no return in terms of naturally bringing back the stocks to their previous numbers. I feel that we are at that point already. Big Bar is one of the biggest reasons for this. The amount of disruption that happened due to Big Bar has been felt by a lot of first nations both above and below the slide site. Instead of getting ready to fish for our families, we have to wait and see what shows up on the fishing grounds in order to ensure that the stocks can survive for that year.

Our elders have been concerned for years about the health of our salmon, and it's now becoming a reality. Some first nations are fortunate enough to have salmon brought into their communities from neighbouring first nations, but this may not be the case every year, as other stocks are starting to dwindle as well.

I just wanted to share some really hard numbers with you from this past year, similar to what I did last year. In the Early Stuart 2020 return, there were 30 sockeye in total that returned to the spawning grounds. That's 0.02% of the in-season expectation of 16,000. In 2019, we had 89 sockeye, so this is two years in a row when we've had below 100 spawners for that run. The early summer aggregate was about 51% of the 2016 brood year this year, similar to last year, when it was 33% of the 2015 brood year. It's the first time since 1992 that the early summer aggregate has reached below 100,000 spawners.

The summer run aggregate is 81% of the 2016 brood year, and the Chilko 2020 return within that summer run is 55,000, which is 36%. The Late Stuart 2020 return is 4,763, and it's the third straight year of decline on this cycle.

I really wanted to share those numbers because it shows in black and white what kind of devastation all of these declines are causing.

Right now I want to recommend that all fisheries along the Fraser be curtailed for a few years to allow for the recovery of a lot of these stocks.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay, Mr. Haskell. We'll have to end it there. I know you had a little bit more to say, and hopefully that will come out in the round of questioning coming up very shortly.

4:15 p.m.

President of Fraser Salmon Management Council, Tl'azt'en First Nation

Darren Haskell

Yes. All right.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We'll now go to Mr. Hill for five minutes or less, please.

4:15 p.m.

Aaron Hill Executive Director, Watershed Watch Salmon Society

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for having me here.

I'm the executive director of Watershed Watch Salmon Society, and we advocate for the conservation of B.C.'s wild salmon and their habitats.

I grew up around salmon and fishing. I have a master's degree in biology. Between my education and my work as a fisheries observer and my current job, I've been focused on salmon for about 25 years.

My understanding is that today you want to hear how government should implement the recent budget commitments for salmon, which were very welcome. We have to look at those commitments in the context of the crisis our salmon are in and the brutal cuts to salmon management over the past couple of decades.

I'm going to get right to it with some key budget items.

The first is to “stabilize and conserve wild Pacific salmon populations, including through investment in research, new hatchery facilities, and habitat restoration.” That's a good start, but the objective there should be the same as Canada's wild salmon policy, which is not just to stabilize but “to restore and maintain the healthy and diverse salmon populations in their habitats”.

The top priority has to be rebuilding endangered salmon runs, as required under the new Fisheries Act and the wild salmon policy. DFO has not even initiated recovery planning for the vast majority of B.C.'s endangered salmon populations, and many more have not even been properly assessed.

The bit about investment in new hatcheries is a tricky one. You've heard testimony on the growing scientific evidence that hatcheries harm wild salmon by degrading their genetic fitness, by drawing unsustainable fishing pressure, by competing with wild salmon for diminishing food supply and by spreading disease. They're also very expensive.

DFO's current risk assessment framework for hatcheries is piecemeal. It hasn't been peer reviewed. It doesn't cover all the risk factors. It doesn't get applied to all hatchery operations, and the process is not transparent. We do need a few hatcheries here and there in extreme cases, like Mr. Haskell described, but the risks need to be properly assessed, with wild salmon health as the top priority.

Habitat protection and restoration is really a much better investment, especially if it's targeted on the most critical habitats. Some of that's been accomplished already through the B.C. SRIF. The federal government could also leverage more provincial support by matching the B.C. government's healthy watersheds initiative.

There are also some important efficiencies to exploit. For example, the budget included $1.4 billion to top up the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund. A chunk of that will likely go to flood control. There are over 1,500 kilometres of salmon habitat in the lower Fraser that are blocked off by obsolete flood control structures that need to be upgraded to deal with increased flooding due to climate change. Those upgrades can be done in ways that open up the habitat for salmon while keeping communities safe from flooding. If federally funded flood control projects are required to be fish-friendly, it could actually open up a huge amount of habitat for Fraser salmon.

Protecting habitat in the first place is actually much cheaper than restoring it later. The “Heart of the Fraser”, which I believe you've heard about, is a prime example of habitat needing protection. In general, this government simply needs to stop allowing so much habitat destruction.

On the commitment to improve fishery management, we can't manage our fisheries properly right now because we don't have good enough data on how many fish we have in our streams, who's catching them, how many are being kept and where, and how many released fish survive to spawn. That's partly why mark-selective fisheries are so risky right now. We need to bring our catch monitoring and stock assessment up to national and international standards across all fishing sectors. B.C.'s commercial salmon fisheries no longer have Marine Stewardship Council certification because DFO hasn't been meeting those basic standards.

Regarding the $20 million for consultations on phasing out open-net salmon farms, consultations are important, but they can't be an excuse for delay. The parasites, bacteria and viruses from the farms are hammering our salmon out there every day. The government promised to get the farms out of the ocean, and that needs to happen. There also should be money for helping to transition the workers and develop truly sustainable industries in our coastal communities.

Last of all, you can't put this all in the hands of DFO. There are great people there, but you've also heard a lot here about the suppression of science and the lack of precautionary management. DFO needs ongoing, independent, expert oversight. That could be the job of the Pacific salmon secretariat promised in the budget. It needs to be arm's length from government, led by experts and not dominated by stakeholders. For an example of what not to do, I'm sorry to say that you should actually look at what the B.C. government set out to do with developing their salmon secretariat and strategy a couple of years ago, which was before Mr. Donnelly was with them.

That's all for me. I think we mostly know what needs to be done here. We need to aggressively take on the biggest threats that can be mitigated and the biggest impediments to good management, and we need to do it fast.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that, sir. You're right on time.

We'll now go to our rounds of questioning.

We'll start off with Mr. Arnold for six minutes or less.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all of the witnesses. We have some very talented and very knowledgeable people here today, and I appreciate your being available.

I'll start off with Mr. Hwang. When the federal government launched the strategic salmon health initiative with Genome BC and the Pacific Salmon Foundation—I believe it was in 2012—the initiative was launched in a four-phase mandate. The committee recently heard that the SSHI has been allowed to lapse and that only two of the four phases have been completed.

Considering the valuable contributions to the science that SSHI has made in the course of the two phases that have been completed, do you think the initiative should or would continue to provide valuable science if it were resourced and allowed to continue to work through to completion?

May 5th, 2021 / 4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but the interpreter tells me that the microphone was not close enough to my colleague Mr. Arnold’s mouth.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Do you want to say a few words, Mr. Arnold, just to see if there's a difference?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Yes, certainly. I've moved the microphone closer in front of my mouth now, and up. Is this better now?

Okay. I'm getting a nod from the clerk.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay. We'll let Mr. Arnold continue. It seems to be working. I will let him know that I did stop his time for that mike check.

You're good to go, Mr. Arnold.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I won't go through all of the preamble to that question, but I will repeat the question.

Considering the valuable contributions that the strategic salmon health initiative made in the course of the two phases that it completed, do you think the initiative would continue to provide valuable science if it were resourced and allowed to continue its work through to the completion of the four phases?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Pacific Salmon Foundation

Jason Hwang

I'll try to give a brief answer to that, Mr. Arnold.

Yes, it would be useful, but it should also be understood that the one thing that hasn't been done, the main thing that hasn't been done out of the four phases that were planned, was the challenge study, whereby essentially fish would be exposed to pathogens and then potential effects from that exposure would be tested in a contained facility. The reason that wasn't done was that a facility could not be arranged to do that.

In the meantime, the science that has been learned from the SSHI—the strategic salmon health initiative—and other science occurring both within B.C. and globally is indicating that we're past the point of needing to understand whether there's a science basis for risk in the effect of open-net pen aquaculture on wild salmon. With the transition announcement of 2025 already established, I think that while there's value in the science, we would need to put that into the context of what we hope to achieve from it. I want to emphasize that the utility of carrying on with the science does not at all change our view that it is appropriate, and we are fully supportive to undertake this transition.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Okay. Thank you.

As you know, the strategic salmon health initiative's mandate was in direct response to the Cohen commission recommendations and the important questions that came out in 2012. The strategic salmon health initiative certainly helped to answer some of those questions.

Since the Cohen report was released, has the scientific basis emerged to support a transition away from open-net pen aquaculture?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Pacific Salmon Foundation

Jason Hwang

The Pacific Salmon Foundation and I personally and professionally believe very strongly that there's a scientific basis for that transition.

One thing it would be useful for this committee to appreciate is that the recent findings from the DFO review on the nine risk assessments, which was tied specifically to the Cohen commission, was focused only on Fraser River sockeye. Even with that, there are people in the science community who feel that those nine risk assessments were not fully scoped. The scope didn't include sea lice and did not include a cumulative consideration of all of the elements that were assessed, and there was an error in at least one of the studies, which scientists working with PSF and others pointed out and which I believe would be appropriate for correction.

With all of that and with the state of our Pacific salmon and with the consideration of the risks and the appropriate application of the precautionary approach, it's our view that without question there is a scientific basis demonstrating risk and that it would be appropriate to pursue the transition.

I put this to someone in the finance sector just last week when we were being interviewed for a podcast. I said that when you manage your money and your major capital, you put it into portfolios and you don't expose it all to the same risk. If you look at our wild salmon as our natural capital, however, every salmon swimming past a fish farm on our coast is exposed to that risk. To the Pacific Salmon Foundation, it would seem irresponsible to continue to do that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

Throughout the course of this study, the committee has heard that hatcheries are one tool in the tool box that needs to be utilized to restore Pacific salmon. How should hatchery production fit into the overall strategy to address many of the challenges facing the Pacific salmon?