Fisheries Committee on May 10th, 2021

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

I can't answer your question about the wild salmon policy. I just don't remember enough about the comparison with the United States.

The one thing that DFO and all countries need to do, and I've said it a dozen times, is to recognize that we don't have the information that we need essentially to be professional stewards. What we are doing is responding. We are professional responders, but we're not stewards yet, because we don't understand the fundamental mechanisms. The evidence for that is the total catch by all countries in 2020, which is a 35% reduction—and by the way, about half of that came from just two areas.

We do not have a scientific explanation for that, and that's what we need to get. That's the priority for DFO and other countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for two minutes and 20 seconds.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Oh, you're all heart.

I'd just ask for a show of hands of anybody who wants to chime in on this question:

The DFO for a long time has been accused of spending most of its time on managing fishing effort and not enough time on rebuilding stocks, but given the state that we're in right now, do you think it will be necessary for the DFO to continue focusing on managing fishing effort and do you think they should try to rationalize the number of licences that are available on the west coast?

Who wants to take a go at that question? Don't be chicken.

Okay, you laughed, Mr. Beamish, so go ahead.

[Dr. Richard Beamish]

No, fishing is not our problem. I think DFO does a good job at managing fishing. Where I disagree with DFO is that I actually think there could be more fishing opportunities, particularly in the recreational sector. It's not a fishing issue; it's an issue of ocean survival.

I do think we can optimize the carrying capacity of the ocean. We need a little more science, or maybe a lot more science.

To me, that's what rebuilding is. Rebuilding isn't some historic abundance. I don't even think those numbers are possible. The ocean carrying capacity has changed, but with a proper understanding we can rebuild to the capacity of the coastal ocean. I think there are opportunities to do that, particularly for chinook salmon.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

All right.

Mr. Chair, am I out of time? No, I'm not. Okay, good.

Mr. Johnson, you've enlightened us in a very valuable way about the nature of aquaculture. It isn't just open-net fish farms that we're talking about. There's sable fish and there's shellfish.

In your community, if you wanted to get more involved in aquaculture, what kind of aquaculture would you tend to go to?

[Larry Johnson]

Personally, I would go to fish farms, because there's nothing wrong with that idea. I think there's enough science now that we can address a lot of the concerns. I'd sprinkle in some kelp, as well as some shellfish, and do some multi-trophic aquaculture.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. That's good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

I was going to jump in earlier when you were talking about chicken and remind you that you're at the fisheries and oceans committee and not agriculture.

We'll now go to Mr. Trudel for two and a quarter minutes, please.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't know if I have enough time left, but I'd like to ask a quick question to bring us full circle on everything we've discussed today.

Mr. Hurwitz, what would you have liked to have seen in the budget that you didn't see in it that would help us in the current situation?

[Dave Hurwitz]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the budget, so I'm not really privy to answer that. I know basically everything that has been on a funding freeze and that has been working could probably use support.

On the filling of data gaps, again Dr. Beamish talks about this. We have risk assessment in our round tables that we've gone through with Dr. Isobel Pearsall and we identify our gaps. I think it's very important to start closing those data gaps so that we can find out where there are and are not bottlenecks to salmon survival.

With regard to saying there's not a fishing issue, though, with all due respect, can I bring up a point?

In 1996-97, I hate to say it, but Minister Anderson closed salmon fishing, so the returns were off the hook. When we look at what's caught in Alaska alone, comprising over 50% of the stock, in terms of the chance for rebuilding, if we could have those fish hit the beds, that's something to think about. I am not proposing we close fishing, but I'm saying that to not call it a fishing issue is, sorry, a bit naive.

Thank you.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Dr. Beamish mentioned that we don't have all the scientific data to solve the problems we're experiencing.

Dr. Angel, how can we get this data so that we can move forward?

[Dr. Eric Angel]

It's by doing science, by doing research. First nations are out on the water all the time. They are in the forests and the trees and looking at salmon's ecosystems.

We want to be part of that. There's an excellent opportunity for first nations to be working with DFO, as well as with the commercial and recreational fishers with the NGOs to collect that data and make it available. Support for that is absolutely essential.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We will now close it out with our friend Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

First, I think I can say on behalf of all the committee how much we appreciate each and every one of you for your leadership in fighting for wild salmon. As the only Vancouver Islander, I can't thank you enough for the work that each and every one of you is doing. It makes me proud.

The Pacific salmon secretariat and restoration centre of expertise was recently announced in the budget. None of us knows what that looks like and what that means, but I think, Mr. Angel, you talked about how important it is that indigenous people not be left out of this. It needs to be government to government to government in terms of the structure.

We hear Wickaninnish. He says he doesn't want to co-manage because that just means consultation. He wants to jointly manage in moving forward.

Can you speak about how critical the structure of this is in relation to that model?

[Dr. Eric Angel]

We're moving that way slowly and reluctantly, but we're finally getting to the point where first nations are at the table with DFO making the decisions nation to nation and government to government.

We have a long way to go, and considering how incredibly important salmon are to the Nuu-chah-nulth and to first nations generally, this is one of the best opportunities we've had in a long time.

I don't want to overstate the point. It's not that hard to do. It just requires picking up the phone and saying, “Let's make this happen” at a senior level. The RDG, the directors at that senior level, just need to talk to their equivalents, to the nations' leaders, and say, “We want to make this work with you.” Then they do the same thing with the province.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I guess it's the same thing at the West Coast Aquatic management board. DFO's not even at the table. All the stakeholders talk about how important that management board is.

Can you talk about the absence of DFO and what that does to all the work you're doing?

[Dr. Eric Angel]

It just makes everything so much more difficult, because we know they are the most important player overall in terms of what happens with salmon on the coast, yet they're not there. We're always having to make decisions with the idea that we still have to run it by the department. If the department were there, actually being part of that decision-making....

It's inefficient. We want some efficiency in this. We want this money to be spent wisely, so let's find processes that can actually make decisions quickly that aren't going to lead to all sorts of conflicts. You're not going to get all sorts of lobbying and campaigns going for and against and all that. Get people actually making the decisions that are going to stick, and you're going to spend your money a lot more intelligently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

That closes up our questioning.

To each of the wonderful witnesses we have before us today, I want to say a big thank you for appearing here and educating us to great lengths on the issues dealing with the Pacific wild salmon.

Thank you to committee members for another great meeting. I want to say thank you to the clerks, the analysts and the translators. I look forward to seeing you at the next meeting on Wednesday.

The meeting is adjourned.