Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Timothy Sargent, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, certainly Quebec's program works very well for them. We do manage river by river in a number of other regions, including Newfoundland. In British Columbia, for sockeye, for instance, there are over 400 different conservation units, and then we have conservation units for the other four salmon species as well.

We certainly do look at each specific species and subspecies. They are associated with different river systems and different branches of the river system, so you really do indeed have to take a fairly micro approach when you're looking at salmon.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to talk to you about Quebec again. As you may have gathered, I love Quebec. Earlier, you mentioned the 2019‑2021 wild Atlantic salmon conservation implementation plan, which began in 2019 and includes 18 actions.

An update to the plan was in the works for 2020. Where are you on that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The plan for Atlantic salmon is currently under review. We are going to be updating that shortly.

Deputy, I'm not sure if you have any updates on where we are with that right now. I know there has been work done on it, but I'm not really sure if there's anything else.

[Timothy Sargent]

Mr. Chair, I can add that yes, the wild Atlantic salmon conservation implementation plan does expire at the end of this year, so we are right now in the process of talking to all the different stakeholders, indigenous peoples and others, about what a renewal would look like.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, the PRV paper published on May 26 shines an unfavourable light once again on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' refusal to heed the science on the risk of salmon farming to wild salmon.

When science reporting on the risk from salmon farming is published, invariably the department and industry downplay it. However, it seems implausible that scientists at UBC, the University of Toronto, SFU and the Pacific Salmon Foundation, for example, can be wrong every time.

How will you evaluate the implications that a virus has been imported accidentally by the Atlantic salmon farming industry and is spreading serious health impacts on some species of wild salmon? Who will you turn to, and will you be designating PRV as a disease agent so that it is captured under fisheries regulations?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you for the question.

A number of people have reached out to me directly with regard to PRV and the concerns they've seen. We welcome any new research that can help us identify and understand the potential risks of the PRV virus and associated strains. We do continue to support research on the number of factors that impact the health of our wild salmon.

All our science is peer reviewed. We will look at what has been put forward and make sure that we have the right path going forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, that hasn't happened. Aquaculture has been given an entire division in the department under its own regional director. It's focused entirely on the industry. While management of wild salmon may be implicit, don't you think it's time, given the extreme state of wild salmon in many salmon runs, that there's better independent oversight and advice?

The department and Canada's elected officials need someone outside of the bureaucracy and political system to provide overarching, unbiased, science- and evidence-based decision-making on what is working and what isn't working and what the priorities are.

Do you not agree with that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that our science is peer-reviewed, Mr. Johns. That is one of the reasons it is held to a very high standard.

With regard to the independence of the public service, they don't do this for political reasons. This is their job, and they take this science very seriously. I stand behind them in the extremely important work that they do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to Mr. Calkins for five minutes or less, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, many communities, businesses and families along Canada's west coast depend on access to chinook salmon for their livelihood, food security, family traditions and businesses.

I've asked you before about mark-selective fisheries. They are a precautionary and sustainable way to provide critical access to these chinook salmon while minimizing or virtually eliminating any of the impacts on the wild stocks of concern. The department has been aware of mark-selective fisheries proposals now for over eight years, and we simply can't get a definitive answer one way or the other.

Minister, I'd like to think that you're in charge of the department. I'd like to think that you've seen the reasonableness of mark-selective fisheries proposals from advisory boards. Virtually everybody says that it's okay to go ahead with these things.

Are you going to instruct your department to proceed with mark-selective fisheries so that we can have this effective conservation tool and actually achieve a balance between conservation and socio-economic objectives?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Calkins.

As I have said to you before, I am not averse to a mark-selective fishery. I do believe it needs to be done in a measured fashion. We cannot have something happening that may impact the wild stocks.

We have opened up mark-selective fisheries in a small scale in some areas as a test—as a pilot program—to see what can work. We have to recognize that the potential of increased fishing effort and increased mortalities from hooking and releasing are all things that have to be taken into consideration and are a real concern. We also need to make sure that—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

With all due respect, I'm an angler. I'm a sport fisherman. I'm a recreational fisherman—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm aware.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I know that there is always going to be some mortality, even in a catch-and-release fishery, but that doesn't prevent catch-and-release fisheries from existing.

I also know from being an angler on the west coast that as soon as you catch your quota or your limit on a particular species, you generally move on, especially if you're chartering somebody to take you fishing. When you catch your one coho, you move on to the next fish. Allowing people to actually keep the first marked chinook salmon that they catch means they will move on to other species. I don't see how that would be more damaging than having a catch-and-release fishery that encourages the catch and release of chinook salmon all day long.

With all due respect, I just don't know if the department really understands the mind of a recreational fisherman.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I recognize how challenging this has been for the rec fishery, not only because of COVID but also because of the management measures we had to take. That is one of the reasons that this investment we have put in the budget is going to be so significant for making sure that we can do everything we have to do to see how we go forward with a mark-selective fishery.

I look forward to working with the anglers and the sport fishers to find out what that can look like for them, recognizing, though, that stocks are in serious decline. We have to be very careful with what we're allowing to happen in areas where there are challenges to those fish.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I think we should be careful. Not all stocks are in decline. I'll agree, and everybody at this table would agree, that certain stocks are in decline, but certain stocks are also very healthy and very vibrant. Certain stocks are actually just created, through hatchery programs and so on, for the purpose of putting fish into the ocean to be caught.

I'm an Albertan, Minister, one of many Albertans who count on going to the west coast to catch fish, and we know, based on talking to those who offer charters and so on, that they know we're not going to pay for airfare or drive to the west coast unless we have some type of certainty and predictability that we can keep one or maybe two chinook salmon. That is the prized fish that's out there. We know that there are many chinook salmon that are produced by hatcheries in Washington and other areas, and there's every indication, as there was last year when there were great opportunities to catch and retain chinook salmon, that this year there's going to be a good return of chinooks, not in the stocks of concern but in other areas.

What kind of certainty and predictability is there that we are going to have the same kind of summer catch retention that we had last year? The sooner the department decides, or you decide, to announce that, the sooner people will book trips to the west coast and provide some economic certainty for those who rely on chinook salmon fisheries for a livelihood. Sooner rather than later, can you give us any clarity on what's going to happen?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That decision will be coming soon, Mr. Calkins. We are also developing a framework on whether chinook mark-selective fisheries and mass marking can be applied as a management tool. DFO is consulting on the chinook mark-selective fishery proposals from the recreational sector, and we are planning to proceed on a pilot basis in 2021, this year, so there are steps being taken.

As I have said many times, I am not averse to a mark-selective fishery. It just needs to be done within the right time frame and in the right way, and while recognizing that there are stocks of concern that we do need to be very careful about. Making sure that we have the right information, making sure that we have the right data, and making sure that we are addressing these concerns that we're hearing from people are all parts of the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

We'll now come back to the east coast. Mr. Morrissey, you have five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll begin by thanking and congratulating the minister for ensuring that DFO got a significant budget increase in this budget. That is no simple feat and, Minister, I want to acknowledge your work on that.

Minister, the lobster and crab fishery has been very beneficial for commercial and first nation fishers in Atlantic Canada, and I have always focused on policies that protect the value and future of these important fisheries. My concern today, and my question to you, stems from testimony that was given in the fisheries committee and directly from fishers about the growing practice of unrecorded sales for cash in the lobster and crab fisheries. These sales are used to influence who gets the product. This practice will hurt the industry, as it has a destabilizing effect on the fishery.

What enforcement measures are in place and what steps is your department taking to identify this practice, document it, prosecute where necessary and eliminate it, Madam Minister?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Morrissey.

One of the things that we all hear about is the unreported sales of fish. This is a challenge. Of course, as you know, DFO regulates the fishery, but once it hits the wharf, it becomes provincial jurisdiction with regard to processing and to who's buying it.

I will say that we are working collaboratively with the province on this issue. Also, of course, RCMP officers have a number of different tools that they use to address the concerns and do investigative work. We do not direct them. They are independent.

I think it's also important to note that I will be meeting with my eastern fisheries ministers very shortly, in the coming weeks, and this will br a topic of discussion, because it is a concern. When people are selling outside of the boundaries of the law, it impacts all of us. It impacts the price; it impacts the data we have, and it impacts our exports, so we want to make sure that this is done in an above board fashion.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister.

I want to go back and ask you to elaborate. You referenced MPAs in your opening statement, which I'm reading here. In your comments, you listed all the partners you were going to work with, but I did not see commercial fishers in your statement. I take it that was an oversight, and I simply want to reference that, because in the last election, the Conservative candidate here in Atlantic Canada used a lot of false information about the government using MPAs to close lobster fisheries and crab fisheries in certain areas.

Madam Minister, could you correct the record on that matter and verify that any move in MPAs will involve collaboration with commercial fishers, and that it is not the intention to close down any lobster fishing areas or crab fishing areas?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely. I did not pick that up in my speech. I do apologize.

I was part of this committee when we did the year-long study that Mr. Arnold put forward on marine protected areas. We know that the best ones are built from the ground up. They are built in collaboration with all stakeholders, with indigenous peoples, with communities, with fishers. That's how they succeed.

Of course the intent of an MPA is not to close a fishery; the intent of an MPA is to make sure it's sustainable for the long term and make sure there's fishing for generations to come.

Are there areas where there is closure? Absolutely. This is not the case here, though. This is not what we are talking about. We are not talking about closing down industry.

I'm going to give some kudos here because I recognize that the Conservative Party, when they had their recent annual meeting, actually approved the 25% by 2025 goal for MPAs. I think that was a good step in the right direction for the Conservatives.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister.

The work of the Coast Guard is essential on both coasts. I'm pleased to see in the budget that there's going to be a renewed emphasis on, and significant investments in, the Coast Guard. In the time remaining, could you elaborate on what those investments will do and how it will grow our Coast Guard's capability and capacity?