Evidence of meeting #34 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regard.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Timothy Sargent  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Rebecca Reid  Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

Minister, today's discussion has been mostly around the budget and Pacific salmon, but I would be remiss if I didn't quickly follow up on our reports on the implementation of a moderate livelihood.

A main focus was bringing groups together. We heard of the need to bring scientists, indigenous fishermen and commercial fishermen who are non-indigenous together in a room and really hear from the indigenous leaders and our knowledge-keepers, as well as commercial fishermen and researchers, in a dialogue on the issues.

I'm wondering if you could update us on we whether we have made progress on that front.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

I also want to thank the committee for the report and the recommendations. It was a very good report, and I look forward to being able to provide you with a response in the near future.

One thing we heard loud and clear throughout a lot of this, and through your report, was that we needed increased communication between the department—me—commercial harvesters and the first nations. We have set up tables to make sure that happens.

We have made progress on having information available to harvesters with regard to first nations' rights and what they mean and what it looks like. We have seen a great uptake from the commercial sector with regard to the information sessions we have put out and the workshops we put in place, but we know there's more work to do.

This has been a long-standing issue, as you well know. It's not one that we will solve overnight, but we are committed to making sure that we are listening. We are doing everything we possibly can to make sure that the concerns we have heard are addressed.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Minister.

I also want to say thank you for the small craft harbours funding. I know that's going to mean a lot to our communities in the Atlantic.

This funding, I understand, is part of our broader blue economy strategy, which I know is currently soliciting feedback from the same stakeholders we discussed earlier: indigenous peoples, commercial fishermen, environmental groups.

Could you speak a bit about the importance of the consultation to the strategy as a whole?

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

The blue economy strategy is a priority in my mandate letter, recognizing that Canada, with three oceans and the longest coastline in the world, has the potential for significant growth in the ocean sector. We can look at countries that are other ocean nations, like Norway, where 37% of their GDP is driven by the ocean sector. In Canada, it's 1.6%. We know there's a lot of potential and that we could do a lot more.

To your point with regard to the small craft harbours, making sure that our coastal communities have the infrastructure they need in order to drive their economy is critical. That's why that investment in the budget is so significant and so important.

I will also say that the consultation process that we've undertaken for the blue economy strategy has been significant, and it's extremely important, because we need to make sure that any investments we make are done strategically. We need to make sure that we have the right path forward with regard to the environment and the economy, making sure that our blue economy strategy is sustainable and making sure that this is there for the long term. It's not just a quick fix and it's not just a one-year plan as we come out of COVID; this is going to drive our rural coastal communities' economies for the next 15 to 20 years.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Minister.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

He's saying one minute.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Okay. Thank you, Minister. I didn't quite get that.

Minister, one of the things that we heard during the moderate livelihood study—and I know you've heard it from the Mi'kmaq communities—was about netukulimk and ensuring that conservation is practised for generations to come. I wonder if you could speak a bit about what you've heard from the Mi'kmaq communities on the need for conservation and what you have learned about this concept that we've heard so much about in this study.

I know that I didn't give you a lot of time to answer, but could you?

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I would say that the first nations communities are stewards of the ocean. They're stewards of the environment. Conservation is a priority for them. I think that's one of the things that we all have in common. Everybody wants to see the species that we rely on available for generations to come; nobody wants to fish something into extinction. That's one of the reasons conservation will always be the underpinning reason for any decision we make.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

We'll now go to Mr. Trudel for two and half minutes or less, please.

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, many of the witnesses we heard from during the study expressed how urgent it is that we act to save Pacific salmon. I believe some of my colleagues have spoken about that today as well.

However, when I look at the budget, we see that the funding is broken down as follows: $35 million will be invested in 2021‑2022, while $158 million is projected for 2022‑2023.

Since the situation is urgent, why not invest more now?

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you for the question, Mr. Trudel.

I will say that “urgency” is absolutely the way that we have to frame this. We have to make sure that wild Pacific salmon survive. This is a unique opportunity and a time for us to make sure that we do everything we possibly can.

The budget announcement is significant because it is a historic amount of money to be put forward, but we have to make sure that we're doing it strategically. We have to make sure that we are doing it in collaboration with other stakeholders, with the indigenous communities.

To that point, one of the main things that we will be doing as we move forward is working in collaboration with those organizations to find out what the priorities are and make sure that we find where the strategic investments have to go, where the policies are that need to change and where the regulations are that possibly need to change. These are all parts of the process, and we are working very hard to make sure that we get those things right.

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

I understand, but it's still pretty mind-boggling.

In subsequent budget years, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, the amounts are all above $100 million, whereas for this year, despite the fact that solutions exist, it is a meagre $35 million.

This year's investment seems a little ridiculous to me.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

We already have programs that we are funding this year, programs like the B.C. SRIF program and the habitat restoration program on the British Columbia coast. Those are all programs that are already ongoing and that we've put the investments in, so it's not like there's no money there now and this is just a small amount. There's already money available that we're working with from previous years.

To your point, there is an ongoing ability for us to invest in making sure that we're doing the right things, because there is money here now, but this is an additional amount that we've been given.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

June 2nd, 2021 / 5:55 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Minister, further to my previous question around governance, the current system is clearly not working. The department doesn't have a system to assess the status of a population, the status of the habitat, set a management target, and then manage for the outcomes you want under an integrated approach using the available management levers of habitat, hatcheries and harvest.

The department has had decades to do this and has never done it. It was laid out fairly nicely in the wild salmon policy, which was written over 15 years ago, but never fully activated. Cohen said that someone should be put in charge to integrate all things for salmon, but the department has never done that.

If you pour $647 million into a system that isn't working and that has never activated an effective management framework, I'm worried that we'll lose the opportunity to get better results. This is why a new governance framework is needed and necessary, one that includes the department, the province and first nations. Otherwise, we're just going to end up spending more money on a system that lacks a management framework, lacks a reporting system and lacks accountability for results.

We know that what's best for salmon needs to be a priority and what's good for users must come second. Will you speak about a new model?

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you Mr. Johns. I would like to thank you for your advocacy. You and I have had a number of good discussions over the last few years with regard to this issue, and I appreciate your comments.

The new centre of expertise is going to be something that will bring people together so that we aren't working at cross-purposes. This is one of the challenges we have seen when we have so many different groups trying to do the same thing. It's really important to make sure we come together and find the right path forward by working in collaboration.

I know that people say, “Oh, you say that all the time”, as Mr. Zimmer did, but the reality is that we have to do this with first nations, the province and environmental groups. A centre of expertise is going to give us that ability to work with the best people on the ground who are doing this work now.

Your point is very well taken. That is actually the goal I have. It is to make sure we are working with everyone to make sure we find the best way to conserve and protect these species.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, former premier Stephen McNeil basically accused you—the minister—and the government of bungling the moderate livelihood file.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I believe Mr. Bragdon is frozen.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

The minister thought you were frozen, so we were getting worried.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I'm not frozen, nor am I a frozen prawn.

Minister, former premier Stephen McNeil from Nova Scotia, your home province, accused you, the minister, as well as the government. He was saying, quite frankly, that he was very dissatisfied with the handling of the situation in southwestern Nova Scotia. He said:

We are in a position where (all parties) are not sitting at a table to find what is a workable solution...This is only getting more entrenched.

Then we come over here to the west coast, and we're hearing from the west coast provincial government that it was not properly consulted on the decision leading to the closure of the Discovery Islands open-net pens. The provincial government was not at the table during that discussion. It was blindsided by the announcement and it also felt that it was excluded in that process.

We've heard from industry stakeholders that they've been trying to reach out to you personally, and to your department, to get answers and information. They have felt excluded and they've had no response.

Minister, why are you not meeting with those most affected by these decisions, whose livelihoods in these coastal communities are at stake because of these decisions that you're undertaking? Why not consult with them?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I have been constantly consulting with industry, first nations, environmental organizations, and communities that have been impacted. I have numerous meetings. My departmental officials also meet with them on a regular basis. My staff meet with people on a regular basis, so with regard to...

I want to approach the moderate livelihood issue specifically, because you did bring that up first with regard to the premier's comments. Quite frankly, his comments with regard to having everybody at the table were inappropriate. These are nation-to-nation negotiations. This is something that we do with first nations at the negotiating table. The industry was well aware of what was going on. We met with the industry on a regular basis. I met with industry—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Minister—

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Mr. Bragdon, could I finish my—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Minister, you know we have only a certain amount of time.

Whether it was the former premier of Nova Scotia or the current provincial government in B.C., it's a common thread. Whether it was industry stakeholders or indigenous leaders on the east and west coasts that we heard from, they all felt that they were not properly consulted or in the loop. Major decisions that affect the livelihood of British Columbians, Atlantic Canadians and Canadians from coast to coast whose livelihoods depend upon these very fisheries are being made, and they're left out of the process. They feel that they're not being heard and they're not part of it. They're frustrated, Minister, and we're hearing this. It isn't us who are saying this; it's the stakeholders who are saying it. It is the people whose livelihoods are being affected who are saying this.

Minister, they want to know that they have your ear, that you're hearing their concerns and that you will enact policies that are going to be responsible towards their future and the future of their families.