Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2022

[Jean Côté]

I don't think I can explain it to you today because it would take a long time. Besides, Mr. Sullivan would probably be in a better position to talk to you about that.

Surely this question also relates to the last question about herring and mackerel.

If it is so urgent to stop the fishery at the last minute, first of all, why are we not looking for the cause of the mortality? In fact, we know very well that seals are the cause.

Also, why doesn't the department stop recreational mackerel fishing, which you mentioned, when we don't know the impact?

Therefore, to ban fishing is to give fishers the wrong role, as they may not even be responsible for the decline in these stocks.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

There was some interesting discussion as a result of Mr. Morrissey's questions. I wanted to offer the opportunity to Mr. Sullivan to share what he had wanted to share during Mr. Morrissey's question.

[Keith Sullivan]

I really appreciate that.

Specifically on mackerel, I think it was a good example of where the disconnect exists. The lack of attention to seals and their impact on a stock is one, just generally. I've been encouraged by the minister's recent work and announcements on seals, and I hope there are more actions to follow that up.

On mackerel specifically, the egg surveys take place only in the southern gulf. Harvesters in Newfoundland and Labrador, where they're most reliant on mackerel, have seen a lot of small mackerel in recent years. They weren't born in the gulf, most likely.

We've been looking for additional science for a decade at least. We've put in proposal after proposal to do additional science to go hand in hand with the harvesters' observations, and we didn't really get anywhere with it. I don't think we were taken seriously enough. It's really disappointing when a result ends up in a moratorium and you believe there are people thrown out of work, when there are questions that could have been answered.

That's just what I have on that. Thanks for the opportunity.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

I was wondering, Ms. Giffin, if you could expand a little, as well, on what you were sharing around the importance of having shared information among the different organizations and of having a means for data to be accumulated so that we understand what's actually happening on the water. What would be needed for the government to move forward with these systems? Is there equipment? Are there processes that need to be evaluated? Can you expand a bit on what would be required to make that happen?

[Melanie Giffin]

Yes. We've had discussions about a voluntary logbook for both seals and mackerel. Anecdotally, we hear from fishers constantly about the interactions with seals and mackerel, and also, as Keith pointed out, the large abundance of small fish, which fishers on P.E.I. now see as well. The discussions have somewhat stopped, though. It alludes to a bit of what Jean brought up, that we're all small organizations. We're big for the gulf, and we accomplish a lot, but we all have limits on what we can do. It comes down to the organizations to try to take that initiative.

It would be great if DFO could step up and DFO science could step up and create a way to do that themselves, rather than industry having to try to push that on them. I feel that is one of those key missing pieces and those key disconnects between industry and science that science could really be using to its benefit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

It went a little over, but it was good information.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be involved in this very important study.

I'm going to start with Mr. Sullivan.

Mr. Sullivan, the way stock assessments have been completed in the last few years has had quite a few changes. We've seen some stocks, and I'll just use the example of 3Ps cod, that have been pushed farther into the critical zone. Would you mind explaining a bit about that assessment process, how it's changed, who has a seat at the table now during the assessments, and how the ratio of external scientists involved in this decision-making has changed, as in the ratio of external scientists to harvesters?

[Keith Sullivan]

With 3Ps cod stock on the south coast of Newfoundland, there were some changes in the assessment model in recent years. We have lowered the reference point for that stock, and now we're pretty well fishing at an extremely low level. Just to remind people, the mortality is not from fishing here. Harvesters really believe that it has a lot to do with seals, and particularly grey seals in that area. Also, there have been some significant changes that I don't think were necessarily communicated well by DFO.

This stock may be like others. Generally, there have been fewer opportunities for harvesters to be involved in the assessment. Probably more international ENGOs seem to be getting new seats at the table and priority. It's difficult to understand how people who have the expertise, who have first-hand knowledge, who are involved in surveys and volunteer their time—it's their livelihoods—are excluded more and more, while groups with international agendas get in around these tables more often. Sometimes I think their intentions are right, but certainly it's conservation with the main goal, probably, of having the fisheries shut down. We find that trend disappointing.

I mentioned before excluding the option to have harvesters have additional input in that CSAS process, where there was a specific place.... For just 3Ps for example, if you go back to around 2016 when we were able to have that input, we were seriously concerned about the stock and pointed that out very clearly. It wasn't about having more to fish. We were talking about the increased prevalence of seals and the destruction that harvesters were seeing from that. We'd been calling that out for a few years. They removed that section of input from the document. That disappeared from the conversation for a few years.

Now we're at a place where the stock has been driven down, like the neighbouring stocks in the gulf. They're probably going down continually, but not because of any removals from harvesters. In that process, I think more harvester participation in science and at the table is what's really required. It's one of our recommendations, and I'd hope this group would take it very seriously and start a process to examine that in more detail.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

We've talked a little about mackerel, and I think it's an example we're using in general for the direction that science is going in with DFO. I've known harvesters who've caught large adult mackerels in gillnets on St. Pierre Bank in deep water. That's nowhere near where the traditional migration pattern has been.

What would you suggest would be the best harvester participation in science? We could use mackerel as an example again.

[Keith Sullivan]

On mackerel in particular, I think we've put through a lot of different options where DFO doesn't do the work or probably doesn't have the capacity now. We have the ability to do acoustic work. Harvesters have voluntarily collected small samples of mackerel— the young of the year—to prove that they're actually not born in the gulf. Do more analysis on those and do a more comprehensive survey of the spawning mackerel in different areas. As we know, the temperatures from the Gulf of St. Lawrence have increased significantly in the last number of years.

We certainly know that mackerel are spawning in other areas. What we frankly don't know is just how much is contributing to the overall stock. A more comprehensive look at the spawning distribution of that mackerel.... Like I say, I know what harvesters are talking about. These people are voluntarily taking mackerel from the St. Pierre Bank. This is [Technical difficulty—Editor] large gillnets, so there's a large amount of mackerel if they're coming up in large-sized gillnets, for example.

We've already put a number of proposals, including to the Atlantic fisheries fund, but we were continually met with walls and, unfortunately, never got any support on doing this work. There have been a number of proposals, and we'd be happy to present those to the department and others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. That's a good bit over, but we'll manage.

We'll go to Mr. Kelloway now for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. It's great to see the witnesses here.

Mr. Morrissey has talked about a lot of common themes over the past number of weeks. To me, one of those themes is the commonality of growing the fish and seafood sector, and we all share that, including the minister.

Mr. Sullivan, I want to direct my question to you. If may, I'll call you Keith, because we talk quite a lot. I think that's okay. I hope that's okay with you. You can call me Mike.

You've touched upon this. The minister recently announced the Atlantic task force seal report recommendations. She talked about the support for those recommendations and getting moving on it, and talked about the importance of a summit that is not a study, but is strategic and tactical and moving things forward. I've also talked to you about how impressed I was with your campaign in terms of seal predation. You're strong advocates on that issue.

I wonder if you could take a little more time to talk about moving in the direction that we are, as you referenced that you're encouraged by this. In particular, you could talk about some of the things you've seen that are the basis for moving forward strategically and tactically in a very smart way.

[Keith Sullivan]

Yes, I was very encouraged by some movement on acknowledging the impact that seals are having and furthering that work, because if we're serious about looking at an ecosystem approach to fisheries—which obviously the department is—it's a complex piece of work, but we know that these large predators are consuming a lot of fish.

I'll just share a couple of stats about the magnitude. Things are scrutinized and the capelin fishery is looked at a lot, and in Newfoundland and Labrador we have the international NGOs looking to shut down these fisheries, but seals probably will take about 100 times the amount of the commercial harvest, so those are really small amounts.

This is the magnitude of the problem we are dealing with. The solutions admittedly are not real easy because of some of the trade barriers. We want to be able to sell seal products and make sure we're doing it sustainably, so I think investment in some of the markets that are accepting of the products—and they can be diverse—can be the one thing we have to start right now. I think that in many ways there are real opportunities to do that with some countries. I know we've had some level of success internationally in the past, and I think that's one thing we can do.

I don't claim to be an expert marketer with relation to seals, but I think in acknowledging that they're a major problem for our fisheries and for sustainable fisheries, and that there are certainly high populations, we can deal with that, acknowledge it in our assessments and, obviously, have a sustainable industry on the sealing side. I hope there's consideration for investment into that, because I think it could pay large dividends, not only directly in seal products but also in maintaining healthy fisheries. We're seeing wild seafood values increase significantly, and I don't expect that general trend to change. It's a growth industry across the country for sure, and obviously in our province too.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Keith. I will say that this week I had seal for the first time. I had two bowls of seal and then went back for a third, but I thought better of it because my wife was probably watching somewhere. I want to make sure that she knows I'm not indulging too much, but it was absolutely delicious. We had a great delegation from Newfoundland and Labrador and Nunavut here.

I want to go back to your first recommendation in terms of incorporating more fisher knowledge and fisher expertise in decisions. I read through your submission, and I'm thankful for it. Can you talk a bit more about the mechanics of involving the fish harvesters on the science side? I think that kind of connects to your social science point as well. I'm wondering if you could just unpack that a bit for the committee here.

We've talked about where we're falling short, from your perspective, so how quickly could we ramp up the knowledge that is around coastal communities, not just in Newfoundland and Labrador but from coast to coast to coast?

[Keith Sullivan]

I should start by saying that we do a significant amount of really good collaboration with DFO and other groups like the Marine Institute. We're involved in a lot of collaboration, and we have a lot of good examples. I know we're focused on the problems here, but we do a lot of good work already, so there are a lot of models that we can look at.

I think there has been some movement away from focusing on work with harvesters in recent years. When I was a fisherman, I was involved in Sentinel Fisheries for a number of years. I was involved in that program nearly 30 years ago. The actual funding for that in real dollars has kind of declined, so it's no wonder we're having problems maintaining that.

I think that is reflective of the investment in the collaborations in a lot of ways, and I think it needs dedicated focus. If work like that of the Canadian Fisheries Research Network—where we did a lot of work particularly on lobster and the socio-economic pieces—and focus on that collaboration with the harvesting groups is something that's more important than it was in the past, then larger offshore corporate groups, individual private groups, probably have an easier path to doing some of that work than do a large number of inshore harvesters trying to do things.

I think it needs specific intention, and if anything is going to be successful, there needs to be some investment, but that comes from a culture of collaboration and then the investment to back that up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway. We went a bit over, but I wanted to allow the answer to be heard.

That closes up our time for the public meeting today.

I want to thank you, Ms. Giffin, Ms. Burridge, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Côté and of course Mr. Sullivan, for your attendance here, albeit by Zoom, and for sharing your information with the committee. I know it will be a valuable asset when they finally get down to writing the actual report. I'll allow our witnesses to sign off.

We'll recess for a moment and then go in camera. I will let the committee know that the Bait Masters weren't able to be contacted first or last in any way for certainty, so we're going to reschedule them to appear at a later meeting on the study. It won't be lost.

[Proceedings continue in camera]