Evidence of meeting #39 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was whale.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
We've gone a little bit over.
We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.
November 1st, 2022 / 4:35 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
It seems like all the witnesses are getting a good assortment of questions, so I might just stick with Mr. Chidley, who is here beside me, and continue on with some of my questions to you, if that's okay.
First I want to acknowledge that I appreciate that you spoke quite a bit about the tracking devices and how there's a need to adapt and improve upon the technology. We did hear from some previous witnesses around some of the inefficiencies of the current tracking devices as they pertain to the North Atlantic right whale. That's helpful information. Thank you.
You mentioned the double impacts of the lost gear and the economic impacts. I believe you mentioned a bit about the economic impacts, the impacts on fishers of losing their gear, but then also the increase in ghost gear that results in the waters. Can you share a bit if there are any specific fishers who are talking to you about that? Can you elaborate on what stories you're hearing around that and if you're seeing increased ghost gear in the oceans as a result of this whalesafe gear?
4:35 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
The last part of your question I didn't fully understand, but we don't have any whalesafe gear yet, right? That's not part of our fishery. Really, we don't want it to be part of the fishery until it's proven, tested and true that we can put something there so that we can successfully retrieve our gear and do it in a safe manner.
Earlier I said that basically it's not just the economic hit on gear replacement; it's actually the sustainable issue, the use of the resource. Ghost fishing does an unquantified amount of damage on the bottom. Over the years we have adapted, such as by putting biodegradable twine in our pots, but over time this has an impact on the crab, especially when they're in the molting process.
We've done everything we possibly can in regard to management. There's been co-operative management with Fisheries and Oceans too, I must say, over the years that I've chaired the fleets, and basically any decisions that were done were done jointly. We look at what the resource is and how it's behaving and what you do with twine sizes for grading the crab on the bottom, not disturbing the females, and we have the biodegradable twine in the event that there's lost gear.
The problem now is that we're seeing a very huge cost in gear replacement, because we have to replace the gear every four years. It's made out of steel; the steel naturally rusts out and the pot gets lighter, so the pots go all over the ocean floor. Offshore, we use 100 pots in the string close to 20 fathoms apart. This is a two-mile string, and we only use two haul-up lines in two miles. We have 12 strings of gear for the both, so it's 1,200 pots we're licensed for. It's a significant investment that fishers have in the ocean at the time. If you're out there looking around to be able to say if you're going to be able to haul today, the day you can't haul your gear because you're trying to keep from busting it off is a day that's costing you money, and it's costing the industry money, a lot of money.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Ms. Barron.
We'll now go to Mr. Perkins, who I believe is going to share some time with Mr. Bragdon if he's more friendly than Mr. Arnold was. We'll see what happens.
Sir, you have five minutes or less between you.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
We'll see what happens too.
If I could start with a notation for the analysts, Ms. Brown at meeting 36 said that she would table with us U.S. right whale numbers. I'm following up to make sure we have that so that we can use it as part of our report.
Mr. Chidley, I appreciate and thank you for your comments. I'd like to follow up a bit.
We had a lobster fisherman from southwest Nova Scotia here last week, Shawn Muise. He was testing this summer. He's in a winter fishery but was testing weak gear in the summer. He had to stop their fishermen—as did the Brazil Rock Lobster Association and the Coldwater Lobster Association, who were also testing it—from doing it because of the potential danger for crew members. They particularly talked about the weight and the plastic parts of the mechanism that broke and could, under tension, harm crew.
Have you seen that happen, or have you just been told about it by others?
4:40 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
No, we've been proactive over all our time in regard to that. Every now and again, we will bust a string or our gear. If you're fishing in a five-metre sea and all of a sudden you get an eight-metre to ten-metre sea and you're working with the gear and the hauler, if you don't have the proper settings on that hydraulic system to allow it to back off, then you're going to snap that gear off the same as thread sewing cotton, like the old expression used to be. That's the issue.
We always are prepared for that, but when you're introducing something into the system that you know is going to happen, that's the problem. We know we're going to break that line every time we hook onto it. That's because we fish in that type of environment.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Their comment was that basically 100% of it broke, and that was in summer conditions, not winter conditions, which are totally different.
Mr. Cormier, we had testimony last week from those same southwest Novas who tested the ropeless gear. They said it was $4,000 to $5,000 for each lobster pot, times 400 pots, which is what an LFA 34 lobsterman would have. That's obviously a cost that is prohibitive to be functional.
What doe the ropeless gear that you've been testing cost per unit?
4:40 p.m.
President, CORBO Engineering
I believe it's about the same cost. I can give you the exact number.
That's basically the reason that our fishermen, in consultation with us, decided to go with trawls instead of the individual pots that they used to use to fish. That's another thing that they have to learn to fish with, because they've never fished with trawls before. Instead of having 10 ropeless units, they have one, but they have 10 pots, one after the other. They've had some issues with getting mud in their traps, so they really have to learn how to fish with that. By talking to each other, they learn how to—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I'm sorry, but we're short on time. I think I'll pass it over to Mr. Bragdon.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
I have minute. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses.
I'll direct my questions to you, Mr. Chidley. Thank you for coming here. I respect your many years of experience.
I want to ask you about the consultation process. Obviously when policy is being implemented—and I know you alluded to this in your testimony—I'd like you to elaborate....
Do you feel, not just on this particular issue but on several issues relating to fish harvesting in Canada, that the harvesters' voices are being heard adequately within the department? If not, what would you suggest? There is critical importance in having that frontline witness as we consider policy direction. Can you speak to that and provide some insight as a fish harvester?
4:40 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
I'll say it in the shortest way possible: No. Consultations are not what they used to be. I know that we're all getting over the challenges COVID gave us because of the in-person problems, but I think in the future we have to get back to the more regional meetings. You don't have to be doing them in every community, but pick different parts in the provincial regime.
Years ago I chaired the fisheries resource conservation council, which was actually the advisory group to the minister. If we had a special task to do, we'd go out and do it. Then we'd provide a report. That's not there anymore, so that avenue is gone.
Right now the knowledge to be able to do the proper consultations is actually in the regional DFO offices. A lot of those guys, the people in the DFO offices.... Let's say it's the Newfoundland region. I'll speak to that one. They actually come from fishing-related backgrounds, or some of their people are in the fishery, or they've been around the marine institute and on the vessels and the research trawlers over time. They know what the ocean environment is like. They have personal relationships with a lot of the fishing industry. That has been lost over the last few years. I think we have to get back to that and get the local knowledge there.
To me, the success of our fishing industry is all about co-operative management, right from the DFO to the industry to those who depend on the industry. That was what was happening over time. Even with the science programs, we always had our meetings over the year. We looked at evaluating the science programs. We looked at what recruitment was like and what harvest levels should be. It wasn't only us; the banks were also interested in that, very much so. They depended on a lot of those reports to look at how their lending institutions were going to divvy out money to the fishing industry. I think we really have to get back to the grassroots business for managing the fishery and for advice.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Bragdon. I think I was kinder to you than your colleagues were.
4:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's interesting; from the fisheries side that pretty well everybody who appeared has told the committee what they do not want, but we've been light on solutions. My concern as an east coast parliamentarian is that our consumer, the consumer we depend on in Europe and the U.S., is very conscious of what we're doing in Canada as it relates to protecting the whale. The consumer speaks. It was the consumer who ended the valuable east coast seal hunt years ago when they negatively reacted to it and closed that border.
I'll start with Mr. Chidley.
What recommendations do you give to the committee to bring back...? On the one side, our consumer, and even the Canadian public, is demanding that we not have a repeat of 2017 or anything like it. We have a number of options. We recognize that one size will not fit all. You articulated well the issue of breakaway rope and why it would not work in your environment. That's clearly understood.
I'll come back to you, Mr. Chidley, but first I want to go to Mr. Cormier on this.
Mr. Cormier, we've heard that the biology of the narwhal does not allow for current tracker technology to be attached. Am I correct? You spoke about this.
4:45 p.m.
President, CORBO Engineering
That's correct. That's actually the first thing we checked when we wanted to track the whales. We worked with biologists, and that's the answer we got.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Do you see that as an option that would become available in the next short period of time? It would be the ideal, obviously, as Mr. Chidley pointed out, if we could, but then how would you go about attaching one to all the animals that are out there? I see that as problematic. Do you see anything changing in the short term on that?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I'll go back to you, Mr. Chidley.
As a fisher, you're well experienced. What would you ask this committee to recommend, through our recommendations, that the department should focus on in ensuring that gear will not interact with the whale and in allowing fishers, at the same time, to access their resource ? In the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the ropeless technology allowed fishers to reach their quotas in areas that were closed, so we achieved protecting the whale and allowing fishers to reach their harvest.
What would you advise this committee to recommend? The status quo is not an option. It's not an option that our consumer will accept.
4:50 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
There's one thing the consumer doesn't want: an ad hoc approach to this issue. I will tell you that. If we're going to make a decision on what to do here as a panel, then it cannot be an ad hoc approach, and then we're going to come back in a year's time or so saying we did the wrong thing.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Could you define “ad hoc”? I don't quite know what you mean by “ad hoc”. I'm not sure the consumer is really that clued in. They just do not want to see news stories of whales entangled in Canadian crab or lobster gear.
4:50 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
They aren't going to see it on the east coast of Newfoundland and Labrador either.
4:50 p.m.
Captain, As an Individual
This is the thing. I was saying that we have to develop a tracking system that we can.... If it takes a year or two to develop it.... Mr. Cormier and his team are working on gear that can actually help on the east coast, if we need to do something—that's the big “if”. Don't go cutting off your arm because you have a fingernail to cut. That's the problem we have to deal with here.