Evidence of meeting #16 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada
I have a very brief footnote to that. I think that's why it's so critical that this be recognized as a NATO challenge in need of a NATO solution and not just something that lies on Canada's shoulders.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Colonel Capstick, you had alluded to and stated how projects have been working. You mentioned one that was working well, the Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation and Development. Of course we're aware of many other projects that have been, even in the Parliament itself, with the number of women who are being represented, and it goes on to the community committees that have been established and set up. You made a comment here that it's one of the most credible, but the comment is to make more of the ministries and administration as effective as that.
What are the difficulties with this effectiveness? We're really talking about the governance, administration, and infrastructure. The governance and administration are very necessary for the overall management and administration of the country. Could you identify some of the difficulties, outside of the comments from before, that might be more directed towards competency, literacy, and cultural issues that possibly you would give advice on?
4:30 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
Yes, and it's a big issue.
At the end of 2001, when the Taliban fell, there was virtually no functioning apparatus of government as we would take it for granted. There was nobody in the ministries. In fact, there were a few guys in the ministries who actually kept going to work during the Taliban period. They weren't getting paid. They were trained in the communist era and have a very interesting way of understanding public administration. One of the most powerful weapons in the hands of an Afghan bureaucrat is a rubber stamp. They really love bureaucracy, but there was hardly any of it there.
This sort of rush of blood to the head occurred in 2002 to reform all these ministries. All sorts of Afghan expatriates came back. Some were very well educated, some not so well educated, and they started filling these jobs.
There are probably four different rates of pay going in the Afghan civil service right now. People funded by this project get one rate of pay. Expatriates get another rate of pay. If you just happen to be a poor Afghan who has spent his whole time in Afghanistan and joined the public service, you're getting one-quarter of the pay of your buddy who came back from Canada or the United States. The whole thing is a mess.
There is a strategy for Afghan National Army reform. One country is in change: the United States. Everybody else contributes, but there's one guy in charge, and that's the American two-star general.
There is no equivalent program for public administrative reform. There are little programs all over town that the World Bank should be coordinating.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
You do have a couple of models here that seem to have been working and progressing that way--Canadian CIDA-developed and assisted models. Could none of those characteristics be taken out and expanded? Is it that we need more resources to do that? Is it being gradually done? I would think that it would be as you said.
4:30 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
We need a leader, and we need a strategy that addresses everything from soup to nuts, from A to Z in the civil service of Afghanistan--everything.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Would you say you have the nucleus of the development that has been there? Your comment here is on what is still possible.
4:30 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
No. MRRD is a very effective ministry for two reasons. They've had two good ministers in a row, Haneef Atmar and Ehsan Zia. Those guys were pros, and they somehow have not been tainted by everything going on around them.
There are ministries there, such as the Ministry of the Interior.... Everybody knows that most of the wheels in the Ministry of the Interior are bad guys. They're former warlords, you name it.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
When we had our discussion on development and democracy, development and governance, and on other issues in other countries, one of the issues that came up is the long-term planning and strategy. It's in line with the comment earlier about developing from the educational system.
I would rather suggest that means starting with the school-age children, to bring them through the system, and seeing some improvement a generation from now. Is that a strategy you would subscribe to for the long term, and are we able to gradually build capacity leading towards that longer term?
4:35 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
Yes. The real long-term solution begins with the educational system, begins with the kids, then moves on to the universities. But you still have to fill that gap, between now and 20 years from now, when those graduates are coming out the other end of the pipeline. Most importantly, you need to establish the environment of human security, where mom and dad can feel they can send their kid to school in downtown Kandahar and they're not going to get inadvertently caught in an IED or by a suicide bomber; that they're not going to be challenged on the street by some guy in a black turban asking why they are going to school. It's those kinds of things.
So it all has to happen at the same time. But you're right, the long-term strategy of education is what's going to solve it.
4:35 p.m.
Principal, The Hillbrooke Group
I would just add that there's already a large resource of educated Afghans present in the country. Those are the individuals who have grown up and been educated in Iran and Pakistan and have come back. There's a wealth of talent that just needs to be tapped at this point in time.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Is there an element of disconnect if they're educated in another country and have been living in another country? Are they able to come back and assimilate into the--
4:35 p.m.
Principal, The Hillbrooke Group
No, I wouldn't say there's a disconnect. There's just no opportunity for them to get involved.
There's a good report that was done by the Afghan research and evaluation unit on public administration reform in Afghanistan a year or two ago that lays out very succinctly what the challenges are to getting the public service up and going. Mike's comments in terms of the overall coordination are bang-on, that we just haven't stepped up to the plate internationally to help make that happen.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to our panel.
I think I'll start with Mr. Neve on the issue of detainees, because it's in our amendment to the government and the Liberal motion that's in front of the House presently, and it obviously touches on the study we're doing on the issue of detainees.
I have a straightforward question. Is Canada's process of handing over detainees more secretive today than the U.S. system of handing over detainees?
4:35 p.m.
Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada
Yes, in many respects it is. It's been very difficult to get reliable information about Canada's approach, and that does compare notably to other countries that are much more forthcoming with information. The U.S. government issues press releases talking about detentions, giving dates and numbers.
We've never said that we need to have access to fine, precise operational details, but we think it's important that there be enough disclosure of information of a specific enough nature that we can really understand what's happening, and have some assurance as to whether the approach meets international standards.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I saw Mr. Capstick making a gesture. From your standpoint, if we accept the premise.... And I've heard this before, that our system is more secretive than the U.S. system. They post on the Internet. You can get details of who's been detained off the website.
Mr. Capstick, why is Canada more secretive in the handing over of detainees than the U.S.?
4:35 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
I don't know. It's a symptom of three successive governments that have proven real shaky at communicating to the Canadian people what we're doing in Afghanistan.
John Manley pointed it out, so I'm not out on too long of a limb here.
4:35 p.m.
Col M.D. Capstick
We need to get a grip on how we're talking about Afghanistan, and a public strategy would go a long way to doing that.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
One of the things Mr. Capstick touched on is the concern around people being tortured. I can tell you that when you brought up the issue in the House, it used to be, well then, you're sympathetic to the Taliban. And Mr. Capstick, you commented that these are Afghan citizens. From my standpoint, we don't want to become the enemy, if you will. So it's incredibly important.
If we look at the model, Mr. Neve, if it's not Canada building and administering prisons--and I don't want to see us do that either--then you're talking about a collaborative approach where we are clear and transparent about when we're handing over the detainees. Obviously that's something we should do and that others are doing, and then have more people on the ground.
Do the Afghans presently have enough resources in terms of their human rights oversight? We know that the oversight is with the Afghan human rights agency. Do they have enough resources presently?
4:40 p.m.
Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada
There's obviously any number of areas where one could say that resources are inadequate, and I think domestic human rights capacity, human rights monitoring, human rights institutions are areas of real concern.
The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission is an incredibly important institution in the country; it has done some great work. Hilary has highlighted one of their reports. There's a lot of work that they've done, not just with respect to this particular issue of battlefield detainees; that's one very specific issue in a broad human rights landscape.
So yes, there's a vital need, not just for somewhat increased resourcing, but substantially increased resourcing.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Mr. Kippen, I want to bring you in on the conversation.
I had the experience of being in Iraq this past summer. It was actually some of the work that has been done in your shop.... Practical federalism was the theme of the conference. We were discussing in Iraq the problems from the beginning, the fact that they hadn't had a discussion on governance models and not bringing in people who were seen as the enemy to the governance of Iraq.
When you look at Kabul as the central shop, if you will, and a place like Kandahar, is anyone discussing changing the governance models--i.e., the notion of federalism? Has that been discussed at all? Is there any work being done on that within Afghanistan and among people who are thinking about policy options here?
4:40 p.m.
Principal, The Hillbrooke Group
There has been that sort of discussion going on. In the constitutional loya jirga back in 2003-04, there was a discussion about the best form of representation, what kind of system works. As you know, Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country that is made up of a diverse group of cultures; it's not homogeneous by any stretch of the imagination. They're all looking for their place in society in their ability to have proper representation.
I think this is a discussion Canada could participate in and help facilitate in the country, but it's first steps.
