Evidence of meeting #40 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Perrin Beatty  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Susanna Cluff-Clyburne  Director, Parliamentary Relations, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Stephen Hunt  Director, District 3, United Steelworkers
Ian Thomson  Program Coordinator, Ecological Justice and Corporate Accountability, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
Connie Sorio  Program Coordinator, Asia Pacific Partnerships, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

9:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

They are. What Canadian companies do, whether in the extractive sector or the manufacturing sector or in other areas as well, is bring Canadian standards, which are at least on a par with international norms, usually better than that in terms of best practices, and we try to ensure that the same practices and standards are followed in the countries in which we do business.

Nobody would advocate that a Canadian company going abroad should do business on the basis of lower standards than it would demonstrate here at home. As a consequence, Canadian companies make massive investments in the countries in which they're operating, whether it's in skills development or in social infrastructure that they may put in place, which helps the countries in which they're operating. The companies see this as part of an element of good corporate citizenship in those areas in which they're operating.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Beatty.

Mr. Dewar.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here. It's good to see you, Mr. Beatty.

9:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I just want to go back to something Mr. Patry mentioned, and that was around the role... I find it surprising that your organization wasn't supportive of the ombudsman. I say that because we've had testimony here at committee from those who actually represent the extractive industries, who actually are in favour of the ombudsman and would like to see that put in place. I just want to understand a little more. These are people who represent businesses, who are allied with you, aligned with you, I suppose, I would imagine. I'm just wondering, why the divergence?

9:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Perhaps I'll ask Susanna to comment more fully on that.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Fair enough.

9:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Let me simply say, Mr. Dewar, that we've consulted very closely with our membership to get a sense as to where their concerns lie. We believe the position taken by the Canadian chamber represents the views of our members, particularly from this sector, because they're the ones who are most affected.

I think it's also important to note that in the process, many of the people from the industry who participated in the consultations that took place did so as individuals rather than representing their institutions, either the industry writ large or a company as such.

We have wanted to go back and speak to our member companies and ask them some questions. For instance, what is the impact on your company? Is this something that's positive or not? How do we try to meet standards that make sense for everybody involved?

Susanna, perhaps you can elaborate.

9:45 a.m.

Director, Parliamentary Relations, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Susanna Cluff-Clyburne

Sure.

What Perrin said is absolutely true. I wasn't with the chamber at the time, but I've spoken with a couple of people who actually sat on the round tables, and they've said they were there as individuals. They were brought to the round tables because of their expertise in the sector. They weren't there necessarily representing their company.

When the round tables report came out, we did have several members come to us. They took issue and had difficulty with the establishment of an ombudsman when the OECD-mandated national contact point already existed and could, through increased resources devoted to it, do the job that the round tables felt it should.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

The logic that was provided at this committee by those who represent industry--they weren't just umbrella groups, they were people who were actually in the business--was that they were very concerned that there would be a perceived bias if it were housed internally; in other words, in government or in connection to government.

I find it surprising that the chamber would have an issue with that. As was mentioned, a counsellor is a counsellor, right? I say that with all due respect. They wanted to have a space created that would be separate from influence so that all of the issues of concern that you've brought forward would be able to be arbitrated in a fair manner. So I just find that surprising.

I want to come back to a couple of points that were made earlier.

Mr. Beatty, you said that this could.... I'll stay away from the “sky is falling” thesis that one of my colleagues over there mentioned. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it; we didn't have EDC or CPP saying they'd have to pull all their investments from the stock exchange.

What we'd like to see, I think all of us, is fair rules. When you see the litigation happening right now to Canadian companies--it's ramping up, it's not going away--I don't understand how this bill would do anything but improve Canada's reputation and brand.

You know, Talisman has changed their ways. I was referencing CEMA the other day. You would have some experience with CEMA. It was used to ensure that Canadian companies wouldn't continue to invest in Burma. And that wasn't happening before CEMA was invoked; when we were dealing with South Africa and apartheid, that was a dilemma. It was actually a Conservative government that created CEMA.

Some of us might take issue with this bill as being anything but an evolving of what we've seen. I recall very well the debates around South Africa, that we couldn't divest ourselves, that we shouldn't do anything, that we had to just let business go along. Eventually, though, we had a debate in this country, and things changed. I think a smart thing happened with the creation of CEMA as a tool for cabinet to use.

That said, we're still evolving. We don't stand still.

I haven't seen anything in your presentation here, when I look at the bill, that matches your.... I see a lot of modifiers--coulds, ifs, and maybes--but with the bill, there is an opportunity to consult with business and look at regulations, and also a period of time to look into an issue.

I guess what I'm trying to say, Mr. Beatty, is can't you see that there would be many who would argue with you on your premise that this will cause divestment to happen or will tarnish the brand? Some would say that it will actually shine up Canada's brand because we will have a process. When we are litigated against, we can show that we did due diligence.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Mr. Beatty, very quickly, please.

9:50 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Mr. Dewar, thank you for your question.

Would some argue with our position? Of course. That's why the committee is having these hearings. But are they correct in the case they're making? We believe not.

You mention that I modify, that I use words like “could” or “may”. There's a very good reason for that, and that is because the bill isn't in effect. We can't say with certainty what the impact is. All the more reason, then, why I would say to you that the proponents of the bill can't say with certainty that it will achieve the goals that it's designed to achieve, and why precisely we have to be careful as we move ahead that we do so incrementally, in a measured way, based on experience.

You and I have no disagreement in terms of the goals we want to achieve, but where we are deeply concerned is that it is abundantly clear that this bill puts in place a mechanism that encourages people to make unfounded allegations against Canadian companies, allegations that would be detrimental both to the Canadian interest and to the interest of the communities in which—

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Those are happening already, though.

9:50 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

And they would be accelerated by this bill.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Maybe. We don't know.

9:50 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Why make a bad situation worse?

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Well, we disagree.

9:50 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Perrin Beatty

Again, Mr. Dewar, if the government's plan that it has in place—it has been there for seven months—doesn't work, then based on experience, let's improve it. But let's not do something that will have perverse consequences that we can't undo afterwards.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Beatty, and thank you to the Canadian chamber for appearing before our committee. We appreciate your presentation and the opportunity to question you and the answers that you gave.

I'm going to ask that we suspend very momentarily and that our other guests make their way to the table as quickly as possible. We're running about five minutes behind time.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

In the second portion of our meeting today we're going to continue our study of Bill C-300.

Appearing before us on this panel we have, from KAIROS, Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives, Mr. Ian Thomson, who is the program coordinator for ecological justice and corporate accountability, and Ms. Connie Sorio, who is the program coordinator for Asia-Pacific partnerships. As well, we have from the United Steelworkers, Stephen Hunt, who is the director of District 3.

I understand that each organization has an opening statement. We look forward to your comments.

I'll invite Mr. Hunt to make the first presentation.

November 19th, 2009 / 9:55 a.m.

Stephen Hunt Director, District 3, United Steelworkers

Thank you, Mr. Chair and panel.

Good morning. Thank you for the invitation to speak today about this very important private member's bill.

My name is Stephen Hunt. I'm the elected leader of the United Steelworkers, District 3, which is all of western Canada, from the Manitoba border west to the Pacific Ocean and the it involves primarily the extractive industries.

We represent many, many miners, forest workers, and people who work in the oil and gas industry. Many of those people I've just identified would be affected directly by Bill C-300.

Before I begin, I want to tell you where I came from. I joined the steelworkers union as a very young man and worked at Utah mines, an open-pit copper mine at the north end of Vancouver Island. I also worked at Afton mine, a mine owned by Teck Corporation, outside of Kamloops, British Columbia.

I have been closely linked to the mining sector for about 30 years, primarily in health and safety practices in the mining industry. I've travelled extensively offshore to visit Canadian mining operations. I've worked in Peru to help miners fight the new disease of silicosis in Peru. It's something that we eradicated in Canada years ago, but it's now developing in Canadian-owned mines in Peru. I've travelled to Chile to work with miners at Canadian-owned companies who are exposed to high altitudes and suffer terribly from high-altitude diseases.

Also, I'm acquainted with a Canadian mining company in this connection: I was an expert witness in the Westray inquiry. I testified and gave evidence as to why the explosion happened at the Westray coal mine in Stellarton, Nova Scotia, where 26 miners died instantly. Eleven miners are still trapped underground. Their bodies were never recovered. A Canadian mining company....

As you know, the Westray inquiry led to rank-and-file lobbying by the steelworkers to make changes to the Criminal Code of Canada to strengthen it and incorporate corporate responsibility with respect to health and safety when it comes to workplace injury and death.

Now that you know who I am, it will come as no surprise to you that I support Bill C-300 and I support mining, because we represent workers in the mining industry. By definition, that's who pays my bills.

We often refer to ourselves as Canada's mining union. We care about the industry. We care about how well our employers uphold our rights. That's why we have collective bargaining in the first place and why we care about how those same employers uphold rights of workers in communities in developing countries.

But just as we don't think companies should operate here without the balance of collective bargaining to protect rights, nor do we think companies should operate in other countries without formal checks and balances on their treatment of workers, communities, and the environment. We believe that workers' rights are human rights, and that's the context of our support of Bill C-300.

I have one more note about myself. I have been certified by the DeGroote School of Business as a chartered director. I'm qualified to sit on corporate boards in the United States and Canada. The role of these boards has expanded in the 21st century to include not only the interests of shareholders, but those of stakeholders as well. That means workers, communities, and defenders of the environment must be included in the sphere of corporate decision-making.

The steelworkers did not suddenly wake up and discover that there was a Bill C-300. The steelworkers union participated in the national round tables on corporate social responsibility that were carried out in 2006. We anticipated that the Government of Canada would take the consensus report of 27 recommendations and establish a stronger regulatory framework to hold Canadian companies accountable for human rights, labour rights, and environmental protections in their operations in developing countries.

It was not to be. It took almost two years and the government response was as if the round tables had never happened.

The so-called corporate social responsibility, or CSR, strategy was a slide backwards to voluntary corporate self-regulation by corporations, and it suggested that weak host governments in developing countries, not corporate behaviour, are at the root of the problems in the extractive sector.

Mining and oil and gas companies are the face of Canada abroad. They gain further credibility and identity as part of official Canadian policy through the co-financing they enjoy from the Export Development Corporation and the support they receive from Team Canada missions and local Canadian embassy facilities.

Yet, when steelworker members employed in the mining and mineral processing carry out labour exchanges in countries such as Argentina, Chile, Peru, South Africa, and Guatemala, we find a huge disparity between the corporate behaviour of these companies at home and their corporate behaviour abroad.

Our union has negotiated long and hard to establish decent wages and pensions, safe workplaces through joint health and safety initiatives, and environmental measures to protect surrounding communities. The companies claim to take these best practices with them when they go to developing countries, but our experience on the ground shows differently.

Our members employed by Teck, for example, have worked for several years with union members from Teck-owned mines in Chile and Peru. These miners work at operations typically located at 4,000 metres above sea level. Despite an abundance of readily available research studies on the long-term effects of working at altitude and the constant lobbying by worker representatives in both Chile and Peru, Teck refuses to recognize the long-term exposure to high altitude as an industrial disease. Practical solutions are ignored or they are declared too expensive. These conditions mean workers suffer from headaches, loss of appetite, and an inability to sleep. Exposure leads to significantly increased risk of heart attack and pulmonary and cerebral edema. There is no compensation for workers unable to work to retirement, leaving them unable to provide support for their families. We oftentimes call that “economic blackmail” or “economic heroin”, where workers work because they have to work and they have no choice.

While Canadian companies continue to resist protection for high-altitude workers, Export Development Canada has supported the Antamina mine in Peru with $650 million in political risk insurance.

Earlier this year, in Argentina, the United Steelworkers received a request for solidarity action in response to the unjust dismissal by Barrick Gold Corporation of Jose Vicente Leiva, a labour leader at Barrick's Veladero mine. It received $75 million in project financing from Export Development Canada in 2004 and $125 million political risk insurance. Veladero is another high-altitude operation, where workers live in tents without winter gear, while temperatures can reach minus 20 degrees Celsius. Rock slides are a regular occurrence, and two workers were killed in 2006.

Mr. Leiva travelled down 4,600 metres to meet Barrick management with a list of proposals to improve safety practices, and he was told to come back in a week for an answer. He returned, only to be met by management, reinforced by Argentinian officials, with no willingness to address the issues.

Backed by an Argentinian law allowing free association, Mr. Leiva and the other Barrick workers set out to form a new independent union and sought affiliation with the Argentine workers centre, the CTA. Even before the application for recognition was fully processed, Mr. Leiva received notice from Barrick that he was terminated without cause. The cause was that Mr. Leiva and his members had exercised their rights and contested unfair practices at the Barrick mine. Mr. Leiva was recently reinstated, not through any sudden epiphany on the part of Barrick, but because national and international pressure was brought to bear.

The story of Jose Leiva and his members once again proves the adage that we have turned to time and time again as we have fought for dignity and safety in Canadian mines: a mining company is only as good as its opposition. Without a tool like Bill C-300, there are no checks, no balances, and only a fiduciary mandate.

The fact that our mining companies have gone abroad has prompted us to go global as a union. We have followed our managers to countries like South Africa, Chile, and Nicaragua. We are building global networks with workers who share common transnational employers.

The knowledge we have gained of corporate practices and labour conditions in other countries is helping us as we deal with the new challenges brought by foreign ownership in mines in Canada. Yesterday’s mining giants, like Inco, Falconbridge, and Noranda are now replaced by companies like Vale Inco and Xstrata. Three of Vale’s four nickel operations in Canada have been on strike for more than three months, fighting back as this company tries to introduce two-tier wages and a much weaker pension plan.

Bill C-300 is neither punitive nor restrictive for extractive companies. It simply provides a transparent framework for accountability and can only be invoked when violations become apparent. It refers to internationally recognized standards and ensures that financial and diplomatic assistance is contingent on good corporate behaviour. It is a social contract that allows companies to prosper and thrive, but not with an absolute lack of scrutiny by Canadian taxpayers, who are facilitating their offshore activities.

I want to thank you for the opportunity this morning, and I obviously would really like to answer your questions.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Hunt. You'll have an opportunity.

Mr. Thomson.

10:05 a.m.

Ian Thomson Program Coordinator, Ecological Justice and Corporate Accountability, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

I'll invite Connie to speak first.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'm sorry, I should never assume anything.

Ms. Sorio.

10:05 a.m.

Connie Sorio Program Coordinator, Asia Pacific Partnerships, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

Thank you. Mr. Chair and members of this committee, good morning.

KAIROS, Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives, unites 11 faith-based organizations and seven denominations. It works for social justice here in Canada and overseas.

One of the key areas of our work is supporting partners in the global south to increase their capacity to defend and promote human rights. Basically, as coordinator of the Asia-Pacific program of the global partnerships, I was in countries in Asia, where I visited partners and consulted with communities. One of the things they wanted me to bring to your attention is their resounding support for Bill C-300.

I understand that some of our partners wrote letters to this committee expressing their support for the passing of the bill. I can mention JATAM, the mining advocacy network in Indonesia, who wrote a letter signed by 50 organizations representing human rights defenders, civil society groups that are faith based, and also environmentalists. Also, in the Philippines, the Cordillera Peoples Alliance wrote a letter expressing their support for the bill. This letter was signed by 198 organizations that are more or less impacted by mining activities in their region.

I also would like to mention the support of the Center for Environmental Concerns in the Philippines on the passing of the bill. And I would like to mention the presence of our partners from the south, from Marinduque in the Philippines, which was affected by Placer Dome, and also from Papua New Guinea.

What I would like to speak about is the concerns and the stories of partners who are impacted by the activities of Canadian mining companies in their region. Many of these communities suffered or experienced human rights abuses at the hands of the military, who are protecting the interests of these mining companies. Many of these communities were displaced and their livelihoods destroyed because of the mining operations.

In the Philippines, for example, the Cordilleras just recently experienced a devastating calamity under Typhoon Pepeng, but it was not really the typhoon that brought that calamity. It was the subsidence of the soil caused by mining. I have here a briefing note from the Cordillera Peoples Alliance mentioning the different Canadian mining companies operating in the region and more or less causing this destruction.

The partners that KAIROS supports in the global south are not anti-mining organizations. They are human rights organizations. They are sectoral organizations of people who just want to live a simple life and be able to stay in their communities and develop sustainable communities. But because of the mining that comes to their place and the irresponsible behaviour of the mining companies, they want their voices heard at this table. They want to register their concern.

If I may remind the committee, it was this very same committee that made the recommendation in 2005--after hearing the case of the Subanons from Mindanao and the case of TVI--to the government that a parliamentary investigation be conducted on the alleged human rights violations committed by the military in complicity with the mining companies and to look into those allegations. Round table consultations on corporate responsibility were conducted in 2006, and many partners from the south came to participate in those round tables, to express their concern, to register their stories, on behalf of what was created by this operation. Up to this point they are waiting for this committee, for this government, to provide leadership in ensuring that Canadian mining companies are behaving responsibly, that the lives of the communities are respected, and that their ability to say yes or no to the mines is respected as well.

My colleague will talk about the overall KAIROS recommendation. As the person who has just come from visiting the partners and talking with communities, this is what I would like to bring to this committee. These communities overseas are supporting the passing of Bill C-300.