Foreign Affairs Committee on March 5th, 2012

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. I think we may have some witnesses in another meeting who have some more information on that.

What would you say to the possibility of Ms. Tymoshenko being released to come to a western country for health treatment? Do you think that would be a good idea? Would it be supported by the people in Ukraine?

[Ihor Kozak]

Is that question to me, Mr. Dechert?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

To any of you, sure.

[Ihor Kozak]

First of all, as you know, the Canadian government and Canada went out of their way to provide doctors to examine Ms. Tymoshenko. From what I understand, they were not very well received by the Ukrainian government. Their credibility, I suppose, was questioned and they were not allowed to do a full examination. So I think before we move forward, it would be in order, probably, for them to be allowed to complete their examination and then to come to some concrete conclusions—a specialist—as to what the state of her health is. Then one could go from there. But at this point it would be speculative for me to make any further statements.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Fair enough.

You know that the Prime Minister of Canada and our Minister of Foreign Affairs made some fairly significant statements earlier last year about the apparently politically motivated trial and conviction and imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko. Do you think that has any impact in Ukraine to put pressure on the Government of Ukraine? Can any of you tell us, first of all, whether the people of Ukraine know about those statements? Do you think it has any beneficial impact?

Who would like to...Ms. Coynash or Ms. Hetmanchuk?

[Alyona Hetmanchuk]

I think, unfortunately, not many people in Ukraine know about that. I doubt that the Ukrainian authorities paid much attention to those statements. In my view, the only country that could have a very real influence on the Ukrainian authorities today is the United States. It is the only country that has real leverage.

[Halyna Coynash]

This may well be through a political point of view about the U.S.A. I have no idea.

From the point of view of the Ukrainian population finding out about the statements made, on the whole, those who did not read the Internet did not find out because television totally distorted the information. I was following it quite closely and writing about it, but only for publications that would allow those sorts of publication. They did not hear the condemnation and what was happening, and I would stress this very strongly. One of the problems has often been that while the west wants to make the criticism very strong, at the same time they want to say positive things. And of course what happens with the media or the television channels, which are very strongly under government influence, is that the back patting and the hand shaking and so forth get shown on television, but the actual condemnation does not. That is also a major danger.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Is there a lack of press freedom, media freedom, in Ukraine?

[Halyna Coynash]

There's a complete lack of press freedom, I think. Yes, there's total distortion.

But the other problem—and just very quickly on the subject of Yulia Tymoshenko—I found even among human rights people...I think there was some degree of bemusement or even indignation that the west has reacted very strongly to Tymoshenko when there have been so many other issues to react to. Of course, I do understand that in Canada you have many other problems, but in Ukraine, people are seeing other politically motivated prosecutions, other cases of total lawlessness.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll defer to Mr. Hawn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. Mr. Hawn, we'll move up to the next round.

We're going to move back to the opposition side.

Mr. LeBlanc, sir, you have seven minutes.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses. It's been an interesting hour so far. I appreciate very much the insight you've given us, the candour with which you've expressed some views. It's very helpful for us, and I hope the fact that this is a televised session of this committee will help Canadians understand and support the government and parliamentarians urging a change in direction in Ukraine. So thank you for making what was a long trip for many of you. I appreciate it very much.

I have three questions, if we have time. First, Ms. Hetmanchuk, you ran out of time. The chairman, I think, cut you off in a very brutal way. I thought it was terrible.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You did run out of time talking about media freedom, and in any democracy, freedom of the press, access to independent voices, is important. I thought it was interesting when you talked about new media, social media, how many Ukrainians, from your experience as a former journalist, are getting information that way, but social media can also be manipulated. It's often easier to manipulate social media than it would be mainstream media, but I know there's a real concern around the concentration of media, censorship, the fact that media ownership doesn't want to offend those in power. I'm wondering if you have a sense of how Ukrainians are getting accurate, unbiased information. I found the talk show part interesting. Are other independent voices being heard in mainstream media? I'm wondering if you have any suggestions of what Canada could do or Canadian authorities or Canadian civil society, Canadian groups, to engage with partners in Ukraine to perhaps increase or help bring unbiased information to the citizens of Ukraine.

[Alyona Hetmanchuk]

I think that many Ukrainians have a chance to get unbiased information, both from new media.... You know, there is a difference in Ukraine between so-called political news websites and social media. Both of them are really independent.

I haven't heard about attempts by government to influence the most popular political websites, but I have heard about attempts by government to make friendships with the editors and journalists of these popular political websites or blogs. Even Prime Minister Azarov, who is a very Soviet type of politician, invites famous bloggers to discuss their activities.

More and more ministers have started to use Twitter. For example, the foreign minister's Twitter feed is very popular among the ex-pat community and civil society leaders. I think it's much more popular than the foreign minister's official statements.

What could Canada do? I think that's a good question. I think Canada could assist NGOs that are involved in media issues...maybe to organize some training for journalists. My institute is concerned with developing policy. We've established a media group, a media club, for journalists, and we also try to educate them a bit, to explain how to cover events.

We have another problem today in Ukraine. Many journalists, in my opinion, have become very pragmatic and sometimes even cynical. Many of them take money, not only from pro-government politicians but also from opposition politicians; everybody wants to survive somehow. That is also a problem.

I think good Canadian trainers would be very useful in this situation.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

We have very little time left.

Mr. Rybachuk and others, a number of you touched on the upcoming elections in the fall. There are issues around transparency and open elections; voting processes are obviously important.

I'm wondering at a basic level how you can have a free and open and fair election if opposition leaders are in jail. It seems to be a certain contradiction to run an election where the person who might win is in prison. I think years ago the mayor of Boston was re-elected from jail, but it doesn't happen often.

[Oleh Rybachuk]

This is one of the problems. But from the voters' point of view, the biggest problem is that during the last 10 to 15 years there has not been much of a possibility of a different quality of opposition. We have a vicious circle. If you go into politics, you need money. Money is concentrated in a dozen families. Those richest families finance the government and the opposition simultaneously. When you come to power, when you get elected, you're not able to do what you promised. You are expected to promise reforms, but the last thing those who gave you money want is reforms. They want their money back. Therefore, we have this vicious circle.

The only way to break this stalemate between money and morality is to demand politicians' accountability. We have established six democratic criteria, minimum criteria. But the opposition, which claims to be an alternative, are reluctant to commit themselves to those criteria. You know why? Because they already practise the same thing. They're taking money. For that money, they put the people in their campaigns. They would come to power again and it would be the same story. We have a special term in Ukrainian. I don't know how to call it in English, but it applies to people who immediately change positions. They come to Parliament as opposition and next thing they are in government.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Turncoats, I think.

[An hon. member]

Floor-crossers.

[Oleh Rybachuk]

Yes, those turncoats are quite a challenge.

By the way, talking about Tymoshenko, I was there when the courts took the decision. I was in the street. My office was close to the court on Kreschatik. The number of protesters who came there were roughly 2,000 to 3,000. She was getting the support of 14 million people. In Kiev she only had 40%, and Kiev has a population of three million. if a small part of those people would go into the street, it would have an effect. That's the price for this kind of policy, where opposition is not much different from the government. People do not trust and they do not support. It's not so much outside support that politicians need, not to be in jail or out of jail. Rather, it's the domestic support they lack.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dobry den moi ukrains'kyy druzi.

It is a pleasure to have you here.

I want to talk about Vladimir Putin's influence.

[Oleh Rybachuk]

Premier Putin, he is a friend of ours. Yeah, right....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Kozak, to what extent has he been pulling the strings all along in Ukraine? Is this part of a gradual escalation of his influence? How far do you think he might go to bring Ukraine back under the CIS?