Evidence of meeting #42 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mission.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Lawson  Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Good morning, colleagues.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and motions adopted by the standing committees on national defence and foreign affairs earlier this week, we are assembled here for a briefing on Canada's response to ISIL.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I just want to introduce our witnesses here today. We have the Honourable John Baird, who is the Minister of Foreign Affairs, as well as the Honourable Rob Nicholson, the Minister of National Defence. Accompanying them today we have Daniel Jean, who is the deputy minister of Foreign Affairs, and General Thomas Lawson, who's the Chief of the Defence Staff.

Welcome, gentlemen.

I believe we've decided how the order of rotations are going to go. We're going to start with the list.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Peter Kent

We will begin with opening statements by our ministers.

Mr. Nicholson, you have 10 minutes.

11 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of National Defence

Thank you very much, Chair, and honourable members.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee today to provide you with an update on Operation Impact.

You are already aware of the magnitude of the threat posed by the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. As I have emphasized in my first briefing to the committee, this terrorist group stands against everything we, as a country, believe in. As the Prime Minister has stated, “[T]hey dream of destroying the kind of open, diverse, and free society that [Canadians] have chosen.”

ISIL is not only a threat to the region, it also poses a serious danger to Canada and the world. ISIL has called on its sympathizers around the globe to target those who do not agree with its ideology, using any means, no matter how barbaric. We've seen in recent weeks just how much damage appeals like these can cause, as terrorist attacks have rocked Paris and dozens have been arrested in France, Belgium, and Germany in connection with suspected terrorist plots.

Furthermore, ISIL has specifically threatened Canada and Canadians, urging its supporters to harm disbelieving Canadians in any manner. Canadians are justifiably worried about this situation, and they expect their government to take strong action. That is why our government committed the Canadian Armed Forces to the broad international coalition against ISIL.

As you know, our military efforts began last August when our C-17 Globemaster and Hercules aircraft delivered more than 1.6 million pounds of critical military supplies donated by other countries to the Iraqi security forces. In September we deployed several dozen military advisers in an advise and assist role. In October we committed to a six-month mission in which the Canadian Armed Forces are supporting and contributing to the coalition's air campaign against ISIL in Iraq.

By the end of October, Canada's air assets—our six CF-18 Hornet fighters, our two Aurora surveillance aircraft, and our Polaris refueller—had arrived in theatre, and approximately 600 Canadian Armed Forces members are now deployed as part of Operation Impact, supporting and conducting air operations and providing tactical and strategic advice.

The international coalition's ultimate goal is to enable the Iraqi security forces to defeat ISIL on the ground. The coalition is therefore taking a staged approach. First, it responded to Iraq's call for aid. Next, it took action to blunt ISIL's advance. Now it is looking to degrade and disrupt ISIL's capabilities.

I'm very pleased to report that through our combined efforts we have met success in achieving those goals to date. ISIL's advance has been halted and contained. Despite a recent failed attempt to go on the offensive, it is now operating in a largely defensive mode. Its freedom of movement and ability to communicate have been reduced. Iraqi security forces, with coalition air support, have retaken important ground in western, northern, and central Iraq, as well as near Baghdad.

Canada's military contributions are playing an important role in the success of the coalition's efforts.

Our CF-18 jet crews have carried out more than 200 sorties and more than 25 strikes against ISIL targets, including heavy weapons and equipment, improvised explosive device production facilities, bunkers, vehicles, and fighting positions. By damaging or destroying assets like these, the Canadian Armed Forces are not only degrading ISIL's combat capabilities and preventing ISIL fighters from establishing safe havens, they are also enabling Iraqi security forces to operate more freely and safely. Furthermore, our Hornets were used to ensure the safe delivery of humanitarian aid by providing top cover for coalition transport planes as they carried out air drops to Iraqi civilians.

Another critical component of Canada's air task force is our modernized Aurora surveillance aircraft. These aircraft have flown more than 60 missions to date, collecting critical intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance data, which is used to identify and strike targets as well as to assess battle damage.

Canada's Polaris refueller also plays a very important role. By delivering fuel to coalition fighter aircraft in the air, it allows these aircraft to lengthen their sorties and fly further into the battle space. Our Polaris have delivered more than 3.5 million pounds of fuel, helping the Middle East stabilization force to maintain pressure on ISIL throughout Iraq.

Taken together, Canada's air contributions are making a big difference.

We also have approximately 69 special forces personnel in an advise and assist role, who are providing vital training and assistance to Iraqi security forces. The peshmerga need training in things such as equipment use, maintenance and repair; ground navigation; battlefield skills; communications; command and control; and combat medical care. They also need direct advice and assistance with strategic and tactical planning, particularly when it comes to integrating the air support provided by the international coalition.

Let me be clear, our special forces personnel are not at any point seeking to directly engage the enemy, although if they should come under fire, our men and women in uniform, of course, maintain the right to self-defence, just as they do on any mission.

We have been clear from the start that while this mission is low risk, it is not without risk. If ISIL terrorists fire at the Canadian Armed Forces, the Canadian Armed Forces are going to fire back. Again, all of their activities are consistent with the advise and assist mandate given to them by the Canadian government.

Before I conclude, it's also important to acknowledge the enormous efforts of our support staff both in the Middle East and here at home. They maintain a 10,000-kilometre air bridge to Canada, conducting regular sustainment flights to supply our Joint Task Force-Iraq with spare parts, equipment and ammunition, as well as providing medical, personnel, and planning and logistics support.

Due in large part to their tireless efforts, Canada's task force became fully operational within three weeks of the government's decision to deploy, a truly remarkable achievement.

Colleagues, I am very glad to have been able to share with you today the progress made through Operation Impact to date. I think Canadians would agree that under no circumstances should their government ever stand on the sidelines while our allies act to deny terrorists a safe haven, an international base from which they would plot violence against us. This is why our government has taken action.

Again, the results have been crucial. ISIL has been pushed back and is showing signs that it is overextended. Iraqi security forces are growing in strength and capacity. Coalition efforts to assist them are helping to provide the space, skills, and confidence that they will ultimately need to defeat the enemy on the ground.

The Canadian Armed Forces have proven that they are trained, ready, and able to contribute to the Middle East stabilization force in a meaningful way. Our collective successes to date demonstrate that it is possible for the Iraqi security forces, with international support, to achieve success on the ground if we maintain pressure and momentum.

I would like to commend our men and women in uniform for their commitment and bravery as they carry out this important mission, as well as our military families for their unwavering care and support.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholson.

We will now give the floor to Mr. Baird.

January 29th, 2015 / 11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Honourable John Baird Conservative John Baird

Thank you very much.

Good morning. I'm very glad to have the opportunity to update this committee and to discuss the way forward on one of the most important issues of our time.

This time last year, I was at the Geneva II conference aimed at bringing an end to the bloody civil war in Syria. During that summit, which was unfortunately unsuccessful, I worried about the potential for ISIL, or Daesh, to become a threat to the wider region. Sadly, since the summer, we've all watched with horror as this cancer has spread across the border and embedded itself in a broad swath of Iraqi territory.

At the same time, we've also seen the cancer of Islamist terrorism manifest in many other corners of the world—places like France, Belgium, Australia, Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Philippines—ongoing terrorist attacks in Israel, and of course closer to home in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. We even saw it on the other side of that door in this “infidel Parliament”, as the ISIL spokesman described it this week.

This threat isn't going away on its own. That's why Canada has taken decisive action to help curtail ISIL's expansionist agenda and to protect and assist its victims. Since our last committee meeting, I've spent a lot of time engaging regional partners, such as the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Egypt, and of course our partners in NATO. Our actions and those of our allies are focused on five main lines of effort that are interrelated and tremendously important: military operations, foreign fighters, terrorist financing, humanitarian aid, and countering narratives. These areas of focus were agreed on at the last NATO summit. I'll run through them quickly so we can get to questions.

First is military operations. I believe my cabinet colleague Mr. Nicholson has covered this—ably covered it.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

John Baird

I would just add that these efforts are recognized by our allies. The Kurdish government expressed this again this week, and Iraq's vice-president did so last week. The same goes for our regional partners, and of course our traditional allies such as the United States, the United Kingdom, and France. I wanted to pass that on to the members of the committee.

Second, we are working with partners to impede the flow of foreign fighters. This is an incredibly important component. These fighters pose a risk to the countries they travel to as well as to their countries of origin. We're funding regional efforts to limit the movement of foreign fighters into both Iraq and Syria. On the domestic front, we have also strengthened our laws to limit the ability of radicalized Canadians to become part of the problem.

Third, Canada is actively contributing to international efforts to disrupt and prevent ISIL financing. Domestically, ISIL has been listed as a terrorist organization under Canada's Criminal Code.

Fourth, we are working with partners to address the humanitarian needs in the region. Over the past year, Canada has contributed over $80 million in response to the Iraq crisis. That assistance is helping to provide food for 1.5 million people, shelter and essential household items for 1.26 million people, and 500,000 displaced children will have access to education. Many Canadians were horrified by the level of ISIL's depraved acts of sexual violence. We're leading efforts to deal with that by contributing over $13 million to humanitarian organizations on the ground. This funding will help protect the women and girls most at threat, provide support and assistance to victims, and investigate these barbaric crimes so that the perpetrators are held accountable.

Finally, there's a fifth area where coalition members, including Canada, need to increase their involvement. This is countering and undermining ISIL's poisonous narratives. This terrorist organization systematically distorts Islamic values, yet it presents itself as the defender of true Islam. We must find ways of countering ISIL's message and exposing its true nature. Again, we are doing this at home and we are working with regional partners abroad, such as the Hedayah centre in the United Arab Emirates, to counter extremism.

There are grounds for hope in Iraq. With the support of the coalition air strikes, Iraqi security forces have started reversing some of ISIL's territorial gains. On the Syrian side, it was also encouraging to see the retaking of Kobani this week. The new Iraqi government is legitimate and more representative, even if more must be done. This is an important one: Iraq must have a true government that is inclusive of all of Iraq, including its Kurdish minority and its Sunni minority.

Much progress has been made on the Kurdish side, some progress has been made on the Sunni side, and we will continue to engage with our friends and allies, the Iraqi government, in this regard.

It has taken steps to address the country's security challenges and to curtail sectarianism and corruption. These elements are positive, but the Iraqi government must accelerate the implementation of these reforms. A strong, democratic, and inclusive Iraq is absolutely essential to regional stability. Good governance and inclusiveness are also the best protection against terrorism.

In the long term, we are committed to helping Iraqis build the social and economic foundations for recovery and growth. In June, Iraq became one of Canada's development partners. At the same time, Canada will continue to build its diplomatic and commercial relationship. To do this we can build on our excellent reputation in Iraq, especially with our recently opened mission in Baghdad, and our presence in Erbil.

As I conclude, I think it's clear that we're taking a well-rounded approach in our response to this threat, and we can be proud of what Canada is doing. Canada's playing its part in partnership with over 60 nations, indeed taking a genuine leadership role. I'm conscious that there is always more that can be done, especially with a challenge of this scale. We may not be able to do everything, but we should do everything that we're able to do. As I said during the debate about committing to air strikes, when our house is on fire you have to call the firefighters as well as the ambulance.

I believe in a Canada that is strong and compassionate, and in these times we certainly need both qualities.

There are legitimate questions about the nature of our engagement and how we can make it even more effective. We will try to answer those as clearly as we're able. But as we have a constructive dialogue, let's not lose sight of the nature of the threat. After all, the issue is bigger than that, this House is bigger than that, and in my view Canada is bigger than that.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions and comments.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you, Minister Baird and Minister Nicholson.

We will proceed now to the first round of questions. We have seven-minute segments, beginning with Ms. Gallant, please.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Canadian public has been kept up to date on the number of sorties or fighter jets that are flying, and been told about the targets that they're hitting. But what actual examples can you share with us where the coalition is actually making headway?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You've made a very good point there, Ms. Gallant, about the number of sorties that we have undertaken and the amount of cooperation that we have given to our allies.

I did touch upon the successes that are being made on the ground in terms of the containment of ISIL. They have in many instances gone underground. They have retreated in some areas. Stabilizing what has taken place on the ground and supporting Iraqi forces is an essential part of what has to happen. This war has to be won on the ground, and Iraqi forces need the support that they require in terms of the sorties you mentioned. This is extremely important for them for success on the ground.

You have a map before you that you can see. If you compare that to where we were four or five months ago, you'll see that considerable progress has been made. I can tell you that I've been quite optimistic about this.

I was at a meeting in London last week with a number of our coalition partners. We had the opportunity to have the Prime Minister of Iraq join with us. The feeling I came away with was very good in terms of us being on the right track. We're doing the right thing and we can be very proud of the men and women who are serving us as part of our armed forces.

At the same time, I also came away with a good feeling that the progress is being made on the ground because it has to be made on the ground. When you have a look at the maps, when you see how rampant ISIS was—we were just talking about that—just a number of months ago, the containment of it and the withdrawal of ISIL in that part of the world, I think, gives us all a confident feeling and reinforces that gratefulness we have for the outstanding job that is done by our armed forces and our allies.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Great.

What's remarkable about this particular mission is the low, if any, casualties of civilians during the air strikes. How are the Canadian Armed Forces personnel mitigating the risk of collateral damage?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

These are very precise missions that are undertaken by our armed forces and in particular our CF-18s. They have flown a number of sorties, and not always in each of those do bombs get dropped, because they want to be very careful, they want to be very targeted, and they want to be effective. Taking into consideration and doing everything possible to avert civilian casualties is a priority with our armed forces, and it's so consistent with the way our armed forces always behave when they are in a theatre of operations. I am of course very supportive and proud of that, because I hear from them on a regular basis that they make great efforts to not inflict civilian casualties.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Matthew Fisher had a piece in Postmedia this morning. The byline was “Allow Canadian special forces privacy to do necessary task in Iraq”. It highlights some of the work that our coalition partners are indeed doing on the ground.

I found this article interesting in that it confirms that the Canadian Armed Forces are not alone in accomplishing their activities under the advise and assist mandate. Can the minister comment on this article?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

His father was a good man. I think he was an NDP MP.

11:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't know about that, and I don't comment on the operations of our allies. My focus of course is on the special forces that Canada has deployed and the approximately 600 members of the Canadian Armed Forces that are in support of our air strikes out of Kuwait. As has been widely reported, those air strikes from Kuwait involve the support of our coalition partners. I indicated in my opening remarks that the refuelling is not just for the Canadian CF-18s, but for our allies as well.

This is a coalition effort, and that was underscored by the meeting that we had in London last week. About 20 of our coalition partners were there and all of them expressed their support and their conviction that this terrorist threat must be met and that we all have a stake in it. The message that came out loud and clear, certainly in that, is that this terrorist group is a threat to that part of the world, but it's a direct threat to Canada as well. So it again reinforces that commitment that we all have to this.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Minister, you made reference to a map, in that we had regained ground that had previously been taken. Is that denoted by the white around the currently occupied area? It says, “Government Controlled Area”. Had that previously been under ISIL control?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes. These are attempts to ensure or to let people know exactly where the progress is being made or what's happening in that particular area. As you've pointed out, the white area is the area that has now been retaken by the Iraqis and underlines the success they are having on the ground. It's not an easy task, as you know. It's challenging, and there will be setbacks, but overall we can see that the progress has been made. All of us want to work to make sure that progress is continued.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Co-Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you. That's time, Ms. Gallant.

Mr. Harris, please, you have seven minutes.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair.

You won't be surprised that I am concerned about the focus of the mission and the mandate. I'll read from the mandate passed in the House of Commons on October 2, wherein one of the three elements of the actual vote, item (b), says:

note that the Government of Canada will not deploy troops in ground combat operations;

Of course we've all seen references recently to the statements of the Prime Minister on September 30 that the role is to advise and assist but not to accompany the Iraqis into combat.

I guess, General Lawson, that's why you could say with great confidence in October, to national media in answer to a specific question about pinpointing targets, that “our contingent of 69 over there [the ground troops] are entirely employed in training up counterterrorist agents...so they will have nothing to do with that. As far as we know, all coalition troops that are on the ground in Iraq are being used in the same role of advise and assist, but not accompany and not engage in direct combat.”

Also it would be assumed, consistent with what The Wall Street Journal would have been assured by the Department of National Defence in December, that no troops were targeting for missile strikes or were present on the front lines.

So I think, General, what was told to Canadians by Generals Vance and Rouleau last week, specifically that one of the three main objectives was to assist Iraqi security forces in the defence of Iraqi positions and in the prosecution of offensive operations by enabling air strikes from the ground, was referred to as some sort of evolution subsequent to your statements in October.

My question is where the orders to change that came from and when that decision took place.

11:25 a.m.

General Thomas Lawson Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

Thank you for the question.

Through the chair, first I think we should be very clear about what a combat operation is. It is, defined in military doctrine, a military operation in which the use of force is essential to accomplish a mission. A non-combat operation, which is exactly what we have a mandate for in advise and assist, is one in which the military, and certainly our special operation forces, carry weaponry but it is used only in self defence.

When I made my comments in October, those were based on 15 years as a fighter pilot working with tactical air controllers. The tactical air controllers I worked with had always been on the very front. What I had not anticipated in October was that those tactical air controllers would be able to develop techniques that would allow them, from the relative safety of their advise and assist positions, to be able to help the peshmerga, Iraqi security forces, to bring weaponry of coalition bombers to bear. So in fact I provided them, within the advise and assist mission, the authority to go ahead with that well within the mandate given to us by the government.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That does, however, contradict the statements that were made and the assurances that were given by the Department of Defence that they would not be at the front lines. We have them there.

General, the other question I have is on the number of sorties that our CF-18s have been flying in Iraq. The most recent information from the government's website says 262. As Minister Nicholson said this morning, only 25 of them involved air strikes. So we have more than 90% of the sorties performed by the CF-18s not resulting in air strikes.

We also of course have reconnaissance aircrafts, the CP-140 Aurora, doing reconnaissance work.

It strikes me as a layperson that this is not a particularly good use of resources if it's supposed to be an air combat operation. We had said at the beginning that our concern was that there would be a shortage of targets very soon. We were advised of that by military experts, and I think you and others said the same thing after the mission started.

Is spending on this kind of operation a good use of resources when there are so few air strikes involved?

11:30 a.m.

Gen Thomas Lawson

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the question we get to is this: what do we use as measures of effectiveness?

In the case where there are very few troops on the ground putting pressure at this point in the campaign on ISIL forces, one of the measures of success is how many targets our aircraft are finding. When that number is low, in fact what that's indicating.... Compared with when we go back to five or six ago when there were masses of armour and vehicles of ISIL roaming at will across Iraq, what we find amongst our aircraft now is that those have all disappeared, and therefore, ISIL finds it very difficult to mass and to bring their forces to bear. So I think one of the measures of effectiveness would say that those aircraft being there, delivering weapons or not, have been very effective.