Foreign Affairs Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Of course.

Thank you for giving us some of your time this afternoon.

Your testimony is most interesting and I am sure it will help the entire committee.

I also have a question as a parliamentarian.

How are the people of Transnistria represented in the Parliament of Moldova?

[H.E. Tudor Ulianovschi]

That is a very clear question.

Until now, the Transnistria region of the Republic of Moldova did not have special members of Parliament representing this region. At the end of this year we'll have parliamentary elections. For the first time in history, we've adopted a new electoral code with a mixed system.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Okay.

[Tudor Ulianovschi]

Forty-nine per cent will be party lists and 51% will be constituency voting. For the first time we have two new elements.

First, the Transnistrian region of Moldova will have three members of Parliament voted from that region who will represent the interests of the region. We would like to engage them to speak about the issues, but also to help them to participate in public life.

Second, we have for the first time provided three mandates of Parliament for the Moldovan diaspora abroad. This is a novelty for Moldova. Also, North America will have one MP in the Moldovan Parliament. This is something that we will do as well.

Just to reply quickly with regard the law and Parliament, I didn't mention that we have adopted this year an anti-propaganda law in Moldova as a means to protect us. I forgot, but I would just point that out here.

Quickly, to respond to your question, no, until now we didn't have MPs from the region, even though some of our MPs were born there know the issues. Now we'll have for the first time elections that will allow representation from the Transnistrian region of Moldova.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much, sir.

[H.E. Tudor Ulianovschi]

You're welcome.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think Canada could learn from you, from your mixed electoral system, and the speed of your Internet service. We could exchange information.

You also mentioned that Moldova would like to become a member of the European Union.

What steps do you have left? How do you see the required process to become a full member?

Thank you.

[H.E. Tudor Ulianovschi]

Thank you also.

Very clearly, the main foreign policy priority of the Republic of Moldova is to join and become a member of the European Union.

Second, I don't think we have to speak about any EU enlargement fatigue, because we have positive developments between the European Union and the western Balkans. We see that very clear signals are being sent from Brussels and all the EU member states to the western Balkans providing a clear integration perspective for them with deadlines and timelines.

For the Republic of Moldova, I would be diplomatic and not reply to your question too concretely because, of course, I am clearly pro-western and pro-European. I wish my country had joined yesterday, as we say, but we're not yet prepared. We have to prepare the country internally with reforms, democracy, and implement the association agreement with the European Union, which is a road map for preparing Moldova to become eligible. I would like to say this in reply to you, though. As a country that has an association agreement, a free trade agreement, and a visa-free agreement, we would like to request that a clear perspective of European integration from the European Union be provided to Moldova, to Ukraine, and to Georgia. This is what I would like to obtain. We will fight to obtain this perspective, for the window to be open. Then we'll be able to climb into and enter the window.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Madame Laverdière.

We're going to take a minute to hear from Ivan Krulko, the co-chair of the Ukraine-Canada parliamentary friendship group, who has a statement to make and some comments about the relationship with Moldova.

Ivan.

[Ivan Krulko, Co-Chair of Ukraine-Canada Parliamentary Friendship Group, Parliament of Ukraine (Verkhovna Rada)]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, it's a pleasure for me to be here and to have an opportunity to talk again with the members of the committee.

Mr. Minister, it's a pleasure for me to be here with you.

This is the first visit of the Canadian-Ukranian friendship group to the Parliament of Canada.

Of course, we are neighbours, Ukraine and Moldova, and we understand very well that Russia is not only a problem for Ukraine or a problem for Moldova, but a global challenge and global problem. The conflict in Donbass and Russian aggression in Crimea continue the pattern of regional aggression by Russia. Moldova can't control part of its territory in Transnistria because of Russian military forces inside Moldovan territory. This is the reality.

We have a good relationship with Moldova, and Ukraine supports Moldova in the restoration of her territorial integrity. We are together in an eastern partnership with the European Union, and we are together in the regional international organization GUAM, comprising Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Moldova. It is headquartered in Kiev in Ukraine.

Of course, I would like to inform the committee that last year in Kiev we established a new inter-parliamentary organization between our parliaments. The name of this organization is the Inter-Parliamentary Assembly of Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia, and this is a good opportunity to have a new possibility for our parliamentary relationship.

Thank you for your co-operation, and let's hope that Moldova will restore its territorial integrity, and that Ukraine will restore its territorial integrity as well.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Krulko, for that statement.

Colleagues, as I understand it, the minister has a very important engagement with Minister Champagne, so, Minister, we'll give you a few minutes to wrap up, if you like, to say a few words to the committee. Then we'll let you go on your way with what is considered to be a very important engagement and signing ceremony with our government.

I'll turn the floor back over to you.

[Tudor Ulianovschi]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to your colleagues for the interest and support.

Interest means understanding, and understanding means support. It's extremely important to have this support because, indeed, the region is facing the same challenges and the same threats, but also has the same aspirations. These aspirations should be sustained not only by very clear support on the ground, but also by political support by sending the right signals to the world through various international organizations. Canada has been, and I'm sure will be, a leading voice that will encourage others to come out to speak in favour of our countries, and all the principles of law.

The Republic of Moldova has very good co-operation with Canada. I would say it's excellent. We are at the highest level of our bilateral co-operation. The fact that today I have the honour of signing the FIPA, the foreign investment protection and promotion agreement, will further strengthen this co-operation, especially on the economic side, and provide guarantees of investment opportunities and businesses from Canada to invest in Moldova, and the region as well. We have to connect politically, economically, and people to people. I think that only together will we succeed.

I do applaud you for coming out and supporting the torch that we are handing to you with full humility. I am sure that our future will be one without foreign troops and secessionist movements, with countries fully enjoying their territorial space, their sovereignty, and being truly independent and able to resist any foreign interference and, honestly, but directly, promoting their own decisions with regard to their own view of how their country should develop and what their foreign policy priorities are.

I thank you so much for this opportunity. I look forward to further co-operation and discussion.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Chair, for your personal contribution and support, and, of course, I would like to invite Your Excellency, vice-chairs, and their colleagues to come to the Republic of Moldova. We have a very dynamic parliament and a very dynamic friendship group that is also ready to undertake a visit perhaps this fall to Ottawa, but I also think these visits should be reciprocal.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you very much, Minister. It's been an honour to host you. I'm looking forward to further dialogue and opportunities. We're excited for your announcement today with Minister Champagne and are looking forward to you becoming a member of CETA at some point in the second round. That would be the way it should be proceeding as you enter the European Union. Thank you on behalf of this committee, and good luck. We hope to be in Moldova at some point on our way to Ukraine.

As Borys always says, there's no reason not to be in Moldova.

We're looking forward to talking about that some more as a committee.

[Tudor Ulianovschi]

You can come as observers to our parliamentary elections in November.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

We could do that as well.

Colleagues, we're going to take a break and allow the minister to go to the event.

Thank you for this presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Colleagues, we'll bring our session back to order, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), for the meeting with the delegation from Tibet.

Before us is the full delegation.

Dr. Sangay, welcome to the committee. I think we will get all of your colleagues to introduce themselves, or you can introduce them, for the record. Then we'll turn the floor over to you for opening comments. Then my colleagues will have some questions that they'd like to ask you and your delegation.

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay, Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration]

Sure, I will do the introductions.

[Witness speaks in Tibetan]

I just felt that it was important that I say a few words in Tibetan, since I represent the Central Tibetan Administration and reflect the aspirations of six million Tibetans.

It's an honour and privilege to be here in front of this committee. I also think it's important and necessary to have a real voice here, following the recent hearing of the so-called delegation from the Tibet Autonomous Region in front of this committee.

Today I would like to say that this delegation truly reflects and represents the aspirations of six million Tibetans. From the right-hand side, or clockwise, as Tibetans usually go, we have Namgyal Dolkar, Migyur Dorjee, Pema Chagzoetsang, and Dhondup Tashi, and Van Tenpa Yarphel.

They represent the Tibetan Parliament in Exile; and Ngodup Tsering represents His Holiness the Dalai Lama and is the North America representative for the Central Tibetan Administration. He is based in Washington, D.C. As you can see, we have elected representatives of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile, and a representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in this room.

First, with regard to the the previous delegation from the so-called Tibet Autonomous Region, it's only part of traditional Tibet. Traditional Tibet constitutes Ü-Tsang, Kham, and Amdo, three provinces, and as far as area-wise, it's about 2.5-million square kilometres of land, which, in a North American context, is as big as Texas and California combined, or as large as western European countries.

Secondly, the Tibetan delegation sent by China is nothing new, as it has always been part of the Chinese government strategy to have such delegations serve as a smokescreen to the grave human rights violations that are going on in Tibet. It is basically colonial masters forcing a few natives to parrot their propaganda.

What is new is the global community falling for China's propaganda, either to appease Beijing, or selling one's morals for short-term economic gains. Hence, it's encouraging and refreshing to see the committee so courageous and moral in inviting me to speak on what is actually happening in Tibet. I must say that you all stand up for true Canadian values, for which we are very, very appreciative.

I must put my presentation in the context of saying, if you want to understand China, you must know the Tibetan narrative. If you don't understand the Tibetan side of this story, you won't understand China fully. For example, One belt, One Road is much talked about. There are around 60-something countries that have subscribed to it. Many articles have been written about the pros and cons of One Belt, One Road, but for Tibetans, One Belt, One Road reminds us of a nightmare, in the sense that the occupation of Tibet happened with one road.

In the 1950s, the Chinese Communist government promised peace and prosperity for Tibetans, if only Tibetans would help them build one road connecting China to Tibet. Hence, Tibetans did. In fact, there was a song composed in the 1950s and 1960s saying that Communist China is like parents: they shower you with gold and silver coins, if you work for them. Tibetans were actually paid silver coins to build that road connecting China to Tibet. Once that road was completed, trucks came, guns came, and tanks came; hence, Tibet was occupied. Since then the railway line has come and airports have come, all further strengthening and affirming the occupation and colonialism of the Tibetan region.

As you might know, 36 ambassadors of European countries have objected to the one belt, one road initiative for its lack of transparency as to how contracts are given in implementing that initiative.

The delegation from China essentially said that Tibet is free and that Tibetans enjoy freedom. Here I would note that Freedom House comes out with a report every year, a freedom index. As per the report of 2016 and 2017, Tibet is the least free region after Syria. Everybody knows about Syria, and I know in Canada it's also one of the most talked about and discussed issues, but how many Canadians know that Tibet is the least free region after Syria? Also, since 2009, 152 Tibetans have committed self-immolation. They have burned themselves.

What is forcing 152 Tibetans to commit self-immolation and burn themselves? It's an act of desperation and determination calling for freedom for the Tibetan people and the return of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Tibet. This is their aspiration, but still, not many people know about these facts. Why? Again, Reporters Without Borders, as you know, a major international NGO based in Paris, issued a statement based on reports by journalists in Beijing. What they have concluded is that, for journalists, it's more difficult to access Tibet than North Korea. Now with the recent meeting and signing of an agreement between President Trump and Kim Jong-un, everybody knows about North Korea, but how many people know about the situation in Tibet? Not many. Why? Because journalists cannot go to Tibet.

The recent delegation also said that Tibet is free and that Canadian members of Parliament and government officials could go to Tibet to see for themselves, but I must report to you that even the diplomats, Canadian diplomats in Beijing, have great difficulties travelling to Tibet, let alone without any restrictions or without being accompanied by Chinese officials on every visit, determining who they can and cannot see.

These are the realities of the situation in Tibet. The situation is second only to Syria, and access is more difficult than in North Korea. In the larger context, politically or ideologically speaking, I think there's a choice in front of us and Canada too. The choice is, either you transform China to be more like you, a liberal democracy, or China will transform you. China is already transforming many countries around the world. I travel to various capitals around the world, and now the consensus is that either you try to change China or China will transform you.

There's a lot of self-censorship going on, including in European countries. There's a lot of interference in the domestic politics of many countries. If you look at the debate in Australia, in America, and in Germany, it's not just commercial investments that the Chinese companies and businessmen are making; they're now also in academia and in politics. For example, in an Australian university, several Australian professors mentioned Taiwan, Tibet, and Tiananmen Square. Chinese students are the largest group of foreign students in Australia, and some of them complained about those professors. What did the university do? The university fired those professors.

Now Chinese interference is very much present in academia as well, despite the fact academic freedom is what we cherish the most. But their influence and penetration in academia is also very clear. What does that say? In the larger context, as I said, either you transform China, or China will transform you. Xi Jinping at his 19th party congress made it very clear. Xi Jinping thought is socialism with Chinese characteristics, which means one-party rule, no freedom of speech, no democracy. That's what they're bringing to the table in the international forum. Either we have to accept that or we have to push back and say liberal democracy is what we cherish, and the Chinese government should also follow that direction.

The second point, environmentally also, is that Chinese president Xi Jinping and the Chinese government makes a big deal or splash in the headlines around the world that they want to lead the world on environmental matters. If you look at the track record of the Chinese government's behaviour or actions in Tibet, you see that the results are disastrous. For example, Tibet has around 123 kinds of minerals—gold, copper, uranium, you name it— and all are exploited without much concern for the local culture, local environment, and local people. For example, some estimate that 75% of the lithium in China comes from the Tibetan area. Some say 90% of the rare earth in China and around the world comes from Inner Mongolia.

Now, I think if you own a Chinese-made smart phone, you'll know they're very cheap because they use Tibetan lithium. Extraction of lithium is very complicated because you have to use a lot of heat to extract it from the rocks, but in the process you pollute the soil, you pollute water, you pollute air. The local Tibetans don't get anything paid. In the process, the land, water, and air of Tibet is polluted. When they get lithium at such a cheap rate without paying anything to Tibetans and they use it in batteries, smart phones, and other gadgets, that makes the Chinese product very cheap. Similarly, they don't pay much to Inner Mongolians when they extract rare earth. That's why the Chinese products are very cheap.

Environmentally, Tibet is the water tower of Asia. Ten major rivers of Asia flow from Tibet. You can name any of the major rivers: Indus or Sutlej for India and Pakistan, Brahmaputra for India and Bangladesh, Salween River, Irrawaddy River, and the Mekong River. The lifeline for all of the Asian countries flows from Tibet. The Yangtze River, the Yellow River, the cradle of Chinese civilization, flows from Tibet. Tibet is the water tower for 1.4 billion people—it's that important.

We've been sharing water with all of our neighbours for free. Nowadays, we have to pay to buy water in this world so we've been very generous. Unfortunately, the Chinese government sits on the water tower of Asia and controls the flow of the water tower.

Tibet also has 42,000 major glaciers at the moment, but many scientists have concluded that in the last 70 to 80 years, 50% of the glaciers have melted and disappeared. Also, NASA says that by 2100, 75% of the remaining glaciers will melt and disappear. If those glaciers were to disappear, what will happen to the water tower of Asia? What will happen to 1.4 billion people who depend on fresh water flowing from Tibet?

It's not just that. Underneath the Tibetan glaciers or the Tibetan plateau, like Canada, it's permafrost. Under the permafrost, there is carbon dioxide and methane, around 10 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. With global warming and the industrialization of the Tibetan plateau, with the cutting down of trees and all the Chinese population moving into Tibetan areas, the permafrost is melting. If it is to melt, which is 70% of the Tibetan plateau, and if the 10-million tonnes of carbon dioxide is released, then I think global warming as we know it will be very different. If 10-million tonnes of methane is to be released, which is 30 times more powerful than carbon dioxide, then even if all the Canadians started walking instead of driving, it wouldn't help with global warming.

The consequences are disastrous for the whole world. From an environmental point of view, Tibet is a major issue not just for six million Tibetans, and not just for Asia, but also for Canada. In fact, scientists in Quebec have said that whether the winter in Canada is warm or cold is dependent on the climate changes in the Tibetan Plateau, because the jet stream over Tibet affects climates in North America, South America, and all the way to Africa. Hence, because we're short of time, I'd just like to say that ideologically or politically, and environmentally and historically, Tibet is a major issue for the rest of the world.

Let me conclude by saying that what we seek is also very reasonable. What we seek is support for the middle way approach, which is the policy envisioned by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and unanimously supported by the Tibetan parliament, that is, to seek genuine autonomy as per the Chinese constitution so that Tibet can remain within China, but that the autonomy or the rights guaranteed in the Chinese constitution be implemented. That's very reasonable, and the middle way approach does not contradict the one China policy.

Why I say this is that in 2014 and 2016 His Holiness the Dalai Lama met with U.S. President Obama. Both times, the White House issued a statement, first, supporting the middle way approach, and then in 2016, not just supporting but applauding the middle way approach, which means that the U.S. government does not see a contradiction between the one China policy and the middle way approach.

The middle way approach essentially is to seek genuine autonomy within China—not to seek to separation from China, but autonomy within China. This is a moderate, reasonable policy that is also a win-win policy for China and the Tibetan people. I hope the Canadian Parliament and government will support the middle way approach.

In a way, Canada is the ideal partner or advocate for the middle way approach or genuine autonomy, because Canada actually implements genuine autonomy in many of the provinces within Canada. Even as a friend of China, Canada can say that it implements genuine autonomy for different groups in Canada, which is the best way to maintain peace, prosperity, and stability within Canada, and in fact also strengthens the sovereignty of Canada, because many provinces of Canada enjoy autonomy as per the Canadian Constitution. On the issue of Tibet, this is a good model for China as well.

With that, I'll conclude my short remarks. I want to thank Chair Bob Nault for giving us the platform to share our thoughts on the issue of Tibet. I also want to thank the honourable members for spending their precious time on giving us a hearing on the issue of Tibet.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Dr. Sangay.

Now, colleagues, we have a good 45 minutes of opportunities to ask questions.

We'll start with Mr. Genuis, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much, Dr. Sangay and the whole delegation, for being with us. Welcome to our Parliament.

I have three comments or questions. I will put them to you all at once, and then I will turn it over to you to respond.

I'm not Tibetan, and I don't have very many Tibetans in my riding, but I've been drawn to be involved in support of the Tibetan community, in large part because of the nature of the Tibetan struggle. There are so many things about it that people find impressive: the peaceful, optimistic, and generous way in which you have engaged the struggle; the openness to compromise and to collaboration that is represented by the middle way approach; and also the way in which you have been preparing institutions through the government in exile, which supports the Tibetan diaspora but also demonstrates the experience of democracy and the readiness of Tibetans to take that genuine autonomy.

This is really an example to other peoples around the world who are facing occupation and seeking justice, of how to respond generously through open-handedness, through peace, and also by building institutions that demonstrate a readiness for that autonomy.

In that context, could you share a little about your institutions, the government in exile, and ways in which Canada can engage more and give more support to the government in exile?

That's my first comment, or question.

The second is as follows. I was intrigued by this idea of infrastructure as a possible tool of occupation and oppression. That's obviously not how we're used to thinking about infrastructure, but it's something we need to be sensitive to when we work on and with infrastructure projects in other parts of the world. In that context, I would like to hear your perspective on Canadian involvement in the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, because that's something we have discussed and continue to discuss and debate in this Parliament.

Third, there is this myth of the Chinese government trying to pursue dramatic environmental change. Our Prime Minister at one time talked about China's dictatorship allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime and say they need to go green. You have presented us with some evidence to the contrary on that, so I would appreciate a little more from you in terms of this perspective.

Is China serious about going green, or is this a kind of branding exercise for the rest of the world, to try to improve their image? Over to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Mr. Sangay, please.

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

Thank you, honourable member of Parliament, Garnett Genuis. The last time when the so-called delegation from the Tibet Autonomous Region came, you spoke very strongly and morally. That video has gone viral in the Tibetan world, so I must thank you for being an outright spokesperson, even though there are no Tibetans in your riding, which speaks volumes about you, that you are actually for justice, freedom, non-violence, and peace, as you mentioned. I do believe that one cannot say, I am for democracy, I am for human rights, I am for justice, I am for environmental rights, but then cannot speak for Tibet and the Tibetan people. If you don't speak out for Tibet and the Tibetan people, you are not for human rights, justice and freedom. Hence, we really appreciate your efforts and support for all these years.

As far as the Tibetan government in exile is concerned, as per the vision and guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, it is democratic in the real sense. We have a parliament, we have a judiciary, and we have an executive body. Also, the most powerful, or equally powerful, body is also the auditor general's office. They are very strict when it comes to spending. We worry more about our boarding card when we get in the plane than our passport and our bags, because if we don't have a boarding card, we don't get refunded. With $300 as our monthly salary, if you don't get refunded for a $1,500 or $1,600 airfare, that's three or four months of salary. I think it speaks volumes that the auditor general is equally powerful in an exile set-up, even though we don't have police or military or prison. What we worry about is getting noted by the auditor general's office, albeit there's no fear of going to prison. Hence, this is a labour of love. It's fully democratic. Tibetans are scattered in 40 countries, including Canada. In Toronto, Ottawa, or Vancouver, they all vote on a single day. It's counted manually locally, and the election commission in Dharamshala tabulates everything, and the result is declared. Hence, it's a democracy without borders. It's a beautiful thing.

Interestingly, in Canada voting is free and you are encouraged to vote. In Tibetan democracy, you have to pay your voluntary freedom tax. It's an oxymoron. If you don't pay your voluntary freedom tax, you don't get to vote. So from 2006 to 2016, the last 10 years, there was a 70% increase in the number of voters. Among all the democracies in the world, I think it's only in the Tibetan democracy where there's a 70% increase in voter registration. These are voters who are paying their freedom tax and then going to the electoral booth to cast their ballots. It's a beautiful thing that's happening.

Equally, we just watched the parliamentary debate, where Prime Minister Justice Trudeau was addressing some of the questions. I think ours is much more polite.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

In fact, it's very odd that the members of parliament are with me here together, because in our parliament they act both as the opposition and the ruling party, so sometimes they support you and sometimes they criticize you. I hope our members of parliament will learn from your parliamentary procedures, because in our parliament, our members can ask 10 to 30 questions for 30 minutes to two hours, and we have to answer impromptu right then and there. Here I think the Prime Minister's question hour is so precious. You have one hour or two hours allocated, right? Ours is 10 days of questions. I hope our members of parliament learned something from the Canadian parliamentary procedure.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

If we have fewer questions, that's better for the executive. Also, in the true democratic sense it's very robust. We are also very proud.

In fact, you are right, many of the refugees, around 60 million refugees in the diaspora, could learn something from Tibetan democracy, and how we function. We run our own schools, we run our own monasteries, we run are own settlements, and quite successfully so. Our literacy rate for those below the age of 60 is 94%, and in India, which is the host country, the literacy rate is anywhere from 76% to 82%. Our literacy rate is higher than the host country's, better than Nepal's, better than Bangladesh's, better than that of many of the neighbouring countries, even though we are refugees and in exile. It's something we are very proud of and we are following.

And then you're right, infrastructure is a tool of control, absolutely. The road that the Chinese helped us build—of course, we helped them build it also—led to the control and occupation of Tibet. Hence, as you see, at the movement there's a lot of debate about the belt and road initiative and whether or not it's good for the world. As far as Tibetans are concerned, that's how we got controlled. Infrastructure is definitely used as a tool of control and occupation. Whether Canada participates in the Asian infrastructure bank or not is for you to decide; I'll not comment, but one has to be wise when it comes to dealing with China and the Chinese government.

“We need to go green” is the slogan of the Chinese government and Chinese leaders. Are they actually going green or not? I'm pretty sure that when they sell their solar panels or other things, they want to say they are going green, but they have a track record of deforestation and mining all of our minerals in Tibet, and not respecting local cultures. For example, some sacred mountains and sacred rivers are mined and fished, you see. I think you might know the case of a Mongolian activist who stood in front of trucks to protect the sacred mountains. What did the Chinese truck drivers do? They just rode over the Mongolian and killed him. They act with impunity in Tibet, and in Mongolia as well.

As far as we are concerned, we'll go green when the Chinese leaders say they are actually going green, with reservation and anxiousness. One has to be very careful.